And because she covered the topic of Congress and the healthcare vote from all angles (spiritual, social, and political) in a way that I agree with 100%, I will simply repost her comment here as a guest post for those who may have not read it. I don’t know what I could add to her wise and insightful commentary, so I won’t try to. I’ll let it speak for itself ,and leave the rest to the readers:
I don’t think the real issue here is whether healthcare needs to be reformed. Or even whether a “nationalized” program is a viable alternative to what we’ve got.
We need to get a better perspective on the overall state of our nation’s spiritual health (fluttering pulse–shallow breathing–apathetic or hostile demeanor——WAIT, isolated signs of true Life!!!!) before we can assess the topic of physical health care.
While it may be debatable as to whether our founding fathers were primarily Christian in their beliefs, it is evident they valued many key Biblical precepts concerning the governing of our nation. Honesty, hard work and community collaboration were built into the backbone of America, largely because of the spiritually positive influence of the Christian faith. Sure, there have always been problems–human nature dictates this. But we have fallen so, so far.
Over the years, reverence for God has been marginalized as we’ve become enamored with worshiping the human intellect and capability of “the human spirit” and what “we” can do when we set our minds to it. We’ve been building our own modern tower of Babel.
Our country’s elected leaders have for many years been undermining the constitutional foundations of our country while tossing handouts to people to keep us from protesting the steady erosion of one or another Constitutionally gifted freedom. The trade seems fair and tolerable but they have been quietly altering laws and many apparently consider themselves to be above the previously established laws of this land.
I highly doubt there is any deliberate attempt to be evil. These folks probably believe they do have the answer to all our problems. The enemy of souls is cunning and subtle in the way he worms his way into our lives.
And for the most part, our greed and self-centeredness has prevented us from thinking clearly about what our acceptance of such “help” will mean for our children and grandchildren. Perhaps many will feel that is an unfair blanket statement, but it’s hard to ignore that American me-ism has reached epidemic levels.
We have placed God on the back-burner and sell out a bit more with every generation, to the point where kids grow up looking to the govt to feed, clothe and house them.
The church is partly to blame for the destruction of our society because we’ve fallen for the lies that we need big houses, lots of clothes, the best quality food and health care and education (you know, so we can maintain our cushy lifestyles).
We’re Laodicea and have become largely apathetic to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
On the way to our favorite $40 per plate restaurant, we look the other way so as to avoid seeing the unwed pregnant teenager neighbor who desperately needs nourishing meals and a friend who will share her burden. We build bigger church buildings instead of investing in the rebuilding of broken lives. We cluck our tongues in disgust at those who turn to the govt welfare programs. But it doesn’t cross our minds to approach our church families about pooling resources so that we can offer food and shelter to the needy families we might encounter. We get irritated that all the illegal aliens are flooding our borders, burdening taxpayers through our already partially socialized medical and educational systems. I believe that these people ought to seek to become citizens in a legal manner, but our outrage concerning the mishandling of tax money often blinds us to the fact that many of them are trying to escape from horrible living circumstances. And guess who’s likely doing the menial jobs in our country that we’ve become too good to do?
If American people had not abandoned solid Biblical teaching in our homes, schools and churches, I wonder if there would even be much demand for the kind of government assistance we see today. Christians are to be unconcerned with climbing the social ladder. We are to be learning to live contentedly with whatever means God has seen fit to provide. We are to be watching for people with whom we can share Christ’s love. I don’t mean going on mission trips or pestering people about “getting saved”. I mean we are to have a concern that prompts us to develop real and honest relationships with individuals whom we encounter on an everyday basis. We are to be minding the needs of our own families instead of pawning off the care of our kids and elders on others.
And we are told that we ought to WORK if we want to eat. (2 Thessalonians 3:10)
We’re selfish. And even much of the stink that’s made over medical welfare indicates this. We don’t want to part with our money, “treasures” or our freedoms. Especially not to those who didn’t earn these things. Yet, according to the Bible, Jesus has offered us forgiveness that we certainly don’t deserve. God blesses us with the things of the world so that we can bless others. And, as far as I can tell, the only freedom He has guaranteed us is the freedom to serve and worship the Lord that Christ has made possible. If we don’t want to be good stewards of that which we’ve been given, perhaps the Lord has seen fit to remove accessibility to these good things.
The American people have invited human government to be “god” and we are likely going to be soon called to pay our dues. How should we respond?
I agree in part with Taunya’s comment concerning God allowing this to happen. We are to submit to ruling authorities because ultimately, they answer to God and we have (supposedly) placed our trust in Him.
In our country, though, creation and enforcement of our law rests, in part, on the heads of the voting populace. According to scripture, we are not to place our hopes in any human institution, yet are to be law abiding and trustworthy citizens. In the US, this law that we are to obey is based in our constitution, and not the whims of whoever happens to be in office.
If the law of the land is being ignored by the current elected officials, do we–as godly, law abiding citizens–submit to their demands or (according to our law) hold them accountable to the law (both of God and the country which they supposedly serve).
With our unique form of government, it’s a tough call either way, because WE bear part of the responsibility for proliferation of godlessness if we say nothing. We also bear responsibility if we try to take action that proves to be unChristlike or focused on worldly things.
In the end, it’s not legislative change that will bring permanent healing, anyway. But as a relatively “free” society, we do face a challenge as far as obediently carrying out our God-given responsibility before both God and man.
I’ve been begging the Lord to give my husband wisdom in this area.
For well over a year now, the only definite recourse I see for American Christians is to repent of our lack of concern for the things of the Lord, humble ourselves before the Him and plead with Him to change hearts–And, to give us the opportunity and strength to serve Him boldly and unashamedly regardless of what happens.Okay, then. There’s my cyber-ramble for the day.
Thanks for that, Heather. I couldn’t have said any better myself.
I like what Heather has said too.
I have been on and off Oregon Health Plan (state health insurance) for a couple years now and am trying to get back on before this next baby is born. In a way I hate my situation, but hubby wants me to be on it. We cannot afford an uninsured hospital birth, and most other uninsured medical costs and the only way either of us would feel comfortable with an unassisted homebirth is basically if someone was threatening us with a gun.
It is a humbling place to be in and of course people can blame my husband or me or both for not generating enough personal income, but what can I say. Life is complicated and our choices are few because of the way the world and the church is.
Heather, that was so, so, SO well said. I totally agree with you.
Thanks for posting this, Terry.
I really love and respect what Heather said but you could make a case from that that Americans should just turn their entire paycheck over to the government because that’s what we deserve.I’m not ready to go there yet because I still believe there are many God fearing Christians here that love the Lord and He’s not yet calling us to do that.There have been many worse groups of people that God has saved because of a few righteous ones.I believe He is angry,though due to all the murder through abortion and other grievous sin that we need to repent of.
Maryann,
When Heather mentioned us wanting to keep our money, I am pretty sure she meant that the fact that we don’t give and share on any significant levels in our private lives is the reason the government is called upon to do so much for those in need through forcible means, or the tax system.
She was not advocating that we turning our entire paycheck over to the government to give to those who don’t want to work was the most Christian thing to do.
Further, while I am highly suspicious of government intervention and their competence to do just about anything at this point (besides tote the mail and man the borders), it is not and has never been my contetntion that we should do nothing to reform our healthcare system. I simply believe that the insistence on a complete overhaul which gives bureaucrats more power while not increasing options via the marketplace first was a bad move.
I was thinking about Mrs.C’s comment regarding the help her son needs and cannot get because they fall within the dreaded middle: not enough income to pay for it and too much income to qualify for any state assistance.
It occurred to me how sad that is, that in America, where there are so many churches with doctors and lawyers and wealthy businessmen that we cannot get the help we need for each other within the church community. I know that people have to makea living, and I am not suggesting that all doctors work pro bono for people in the church, or even that people shouldn’t pay for services. But why can’t we figure out a way to serve one another? How sad is this? It is as Heather so eloquently put it.We are Laodecia.
At our church, if someone is in need of psychiatric care, there is a wonderful doctor who gives his time to offer counseling one night per week to those who need it. I’m not sure if the church is paying him or not. I do know that the patient isn’t asked to pay anything.
I don’t even know who the doctor is; I only know about him because an extended family member took advantage of the service and told me about it. They go to great lengths to protect the privacy of the parishioners who go to him because seeing a shrink is still seen as a sign of wekness among many Christians.
Anyway, imagine if every believer who could do this did it on even a small scale. And believers created a network between churches. Mrs.C’s son could most certainly get the help he needed for a price she could afford to pay, if not free!!
The problem is that we, the American church, are disconnected from each other. Our churches are not the communities they are supposed to be. It’s all a facade.
Andrea has a series of links up today on the subject of church and community. I suggest we all read them, fall on our face before God and try to do better so that for the people of God, government isn’t the first place we have to turn when times get tough.
Heather that was AMAZINGLY well said!!! I think you have given us all much to think about and I do agree with you on many points.
Catherine – I relate to your situation. I am also going to be using Medicaid for this pregnancy.
I hesitate telling other…conservative…Christians…that we are using state assistance because I know that many are so opposed to the idea.
Yet what else do I do? Do I go without any care on principle (because I believe it isn’t fair that I use the services since I don’t pay as much tax as others)? No one is willing to offer up any assistance or options besides Medicaid…except maybe saying that we just need to work harder and make more so we can afford insurance. Which is so much easier said than done by the way.
The perception that anyone/everyone using state aid is stealing makes my blood boil. I have had to wrestle through the feelings of failure and questioning (Am I stealing? Is this wrong?) yet at the end of the day we are doing everything we can do to survive. It’s not easy.
God provides. He does. And for us it has been in the form of Medicaid. Is that scandalous? Wrong? Am I delusional? Is it ideal? No. No. No. And No. It is what it is. Living as a Christian is working out out the ideals of life here in a broken world with the realities of this broken world. Again, it isn’t easy.
My husband went to the ER this past weekend. We were concerned about some sudden symptoms that could have pointed to a stroke. Having no insurance makes those moments even more stressful. We had to make decision – is it more important to have this looked at and to make sure he is okay or do we take a chance? Maybe lose him because we are afraid of the bills that would come from an uninsured ER visit?
It’s not easy! Life is complicated like Catherine said. We’re doing the best we can and I am always amazed by believers that have an arrogant and prideful perspective that their money is theirs and they have no responsibility, no call, and no response to give to those who are in need.
From my perspective health insurance is a luxury. Most everything we experience here in American is a luxury. I remember recently when we were in a tight situation with our one vehicle and I told our homegroup that I was willing to do without our car if we had to…meaning we would have to depend on other believers to help us get to church, or the grocery store, etc. I realized that a car is a luxury and not a necessity. One of the older men in our group, a very wealthy lawyer by the way, said that a car is a necessity and you can’t succeed in our country without one. I respect this man because he is an older, mature believer…but I very much disagree with that. We don’t NEED a car. As in…we will still live without it. The underlying belly of what he was saying though is that it would be too much for us to ask anyone to help us get to and from church, etc. We need to be independent and stand on our own two feet to succeed. Which, from my admittedly young and immature experience seems a bit antithetical to the Bible. Just saying. It may be the American Dream. But it’s not the Bible.
Anyway. I am super pregnant and have the fuzzy brain you would expect, and I have a toddler needing my attention. I wish I had more time to collect my thoughts and respond accordingly but if I waited for that I would never get on here!
I’ll end with this: it is super difficult to be in need in this country. It is super difficult to be in need as a Christian…in this country. It is super difficult to be in need as a Christian in the American church.
Jen- Thank you for your words. You and I seem to be in a very similar place and I am right there with you as far as “Living as a Christian is working out out the ideals of life here in a broken world with the realities of this broken world”.
Another difficulty of being in need is trying not to resent those who have husbands who happen to be doctors or some other above-average-income profession and sit on a morality-princess throne because of how easy it is to do so (speaking generally- not attacking anyone here – I don’t know what your hubbys do!). I am doing relatively okay right now but I struggle with bitterness when I hear a story about how a wife had to live in a small apartment and only have one car for a year and how awful it was but how she trusted God – hello- that’s probably going to be me my whole life.
One good thing about being low-income/ in debt/ pregnant/ no insurance etc. is that it provides an opportunity to meet God outside of the box and being humbled all the time can’t hurt either.
Being “poor” in America is different than it used to be in the old days when everything was quaint and families stuck together and sewed and cooked together. Prices for products and services where not inflated the way they are now and society was not set up so that if your wealthy, you’re normal (the ‘car is an absolute necessity’ attitude).
Anyway, gotta run. I have pregnancy brain as well as a toddler needed constant attention :]
No worries, Catherine! My hubs fixes computers and while is a renaissance man capable of figuring how to do just about anything, even he would say he’s not going to be trying to deliver babies!
I’m with you and Jen on the difficulty of being in need in this country. I do not think that accepting government help is stealing. I was on Medicaid with my first pregnancy. I was already pregnant when I married my husband (pre-existing condition!) so his employer provided insurance wouldn’t cover me. In fact, I realize how fortunate we were for my husband, a young man of 20, to even have had a job that provided full insurance benefits. We have been abundantly blessed.
Anyway, I remember clearly when I went down to the place to apply for gov’t. medical insurance and the disdain I was treated to. I imagine I looked like a walking stereotype when I first walked in: pregnant young black girl, a dime a dozen.
However, I was not a believer then, so was not inclined to receive the treatment of the lady behind the counter gracefully. I told her:
“I have been working and paying Medicaid taxes since I turned 15- paying your salary. I haven’t taken a dime from the gov’t. in the past 7 years (I was 22). I realize that I wouldn’t be here if I had been married first and pregnant second, but you are not giving me anything and I am not going to let you treat me as if you are.”
I didn’t have anymore problems when I went into that place. Your husbands pay taxes. If you worked before, you have paid taxes. You are not stealing. Don’t allow anyone to make you feel as if you are.
Good morning, all.
I don’t have much online time left this morning but wanted to say to those who have been encouraged by my thought that if anything good is coming from my keyboard, it is of the Lord. He’s been working me over concerning this topic for well over a year now and I’ve been a slow learner.
I do believe strongly that part (certainly not all) if the reason so many Christians struggle with things like affordable health care is precisely because we have abdicated our responsibility to each other. There are other unavoidable factors to be sure (unexpected job market collapse, serious inflation, personal greed and financial mismanagement of individuals etc). Often, we make mistakes that lead to very unhappy consequences and the only thing we can do is turn around right where we stand and start hoofing it back to the place of obedience. And sometimes, it can take a while.
My husband and I have been seriously convicted of the problem of church apathy in our own hearts and have been actively working to reverse our own. Actually, our congregation is quite small and God has been so good to prompt us to look after each other during this rather financially strained time.
It is not always an easy thing, though, when selfish attitudes and spending habits have become ingrained and, as Jen said, luxuries have been confused with being necessities. The fact that many of us are also paying off debt from our own past mistakes can limit our ability to be generous. Still, I believe that even a little given in a spirit of love (especially if it means that the giver has chosen to forgo some personal pampering) is better than millions of dollars grudgingly handed over.
One hard lesson we have had to learn is that if we refuse to share our burdens with one another, we cannot be blaming other believers for being calloused and uncaring. Also, if we refuse to bring our worries to the Lord and hand them over to Him with an attitude that we will obey what He directs, we are being disobedient to scripture.
Sometimes God does miraculously prod Christians to help out when a need is unknown. I’ve seen it several times. But still, we are supposed to be sharing our concerns–physical, financial, emotional etc with each other. We are Christ’s body and if we are not sharing because of our own pride or fear of other’s condemnation, then there is a problem (I will just call it sin) that ought to be addressed either individually or corporately.
The Lord has absolutely been pounding 1 John 3:16-18 through my head lately.
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?
Little children, let us not love in word or speech but in deed and in truth.
In other words it doesn’t matter what we SAY. If we grasp on any level what Christ has done for us, we ought to be thankful for the divine privilege of being able to serve those of His body who are truly needy. Certainly, not every believer is going to be perfectly unselfish at all times, as we are all in different stages of growth. But it should be our heart’s desire. That is an awesome challenge, no?
Catherine R and Jen,
I want to speak specifically to your situations as I in no way intended to promote the idea that Christians in need are sinning if they partake of state-run programs. When my husband and I had our first child, we were dirt poor, had moved into a new town with a depressed economy and I participated in WIC for a year so am not about to point fingers at others who feel they have no other options at this time. It may very well have been wrong for us to participate, but at the time, it is what we did. Life is complicated and I have enough difficulty sorting through my own mess in order to determine where I need to repent, so I’m not going to be judging you all concerning things which need to be taken up with God alone. I am praying for both of you that your husbands will be granted wisdom and, if the Lord sees fit, to bring appropriate relief to your situations.
I didn’t have anymore problems when I went into that place. Your husbands pay taxes. If you worked before, you have paid taxes. You are not stealing. Don’t allow anyone to make you feel as if you are.
Agreed.
I have given this same advice to several brand new army spouses who were in need of accepting WIC and food stamps to make ends meet on E1-E3 salaries. Several had husbands who joined the military after the couples got married due to an unexpected pregnancy and being young and fresh in the military, they’re barely making enough to feed themselves. Most balked at the solution, embarrassed to accept such aid, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do and these families are not only paying taxes but have husbands who will deploy in service to this country. Some day not too long from now, with wise financial planning, their husbands will be higher rankings and have enough time in service for them to get off the programs.
And, Catherine, please remember most people use government programs of some kind at some point in their lives. The people who are cruel to you may be using the EIC themselves or another such gov program/entitlement. Even such nice services as libraries and parks are technically quite “socialistic” by this same logic too and roughly 99% of the population relies on 1% volunteering to defend the Constitution and die for it if need be, via the all-volunteer military. There are numerous programs people ‘take advantage of’ both in the form of using them and forgetting exactly where they come from.
I also need to make a confession: We have recently become a one car family, and while I haven’t complained about it, I must admit I miss having my truck available to me at a moment’s notice. Actually, I’m okay. It’s just that my big kids (I guess they’re spoiled) are wondering what happens to their upcoming plans now.
Thing is, unless my husband changes jobs, a car is an absolute MUST in this house at this time. It is required for him to do the job he does for his employer.
My hubs fixes computers and while is a renaissance man capable of figuring how to do just about anything, even he would say he’s not going to be trying to deliver babies!
LOL!
Okay, I have to say that my last three pregnancies were planned home births. The first time, we also knew some people who planned to “do it themselves”. He’s a trained paramedic or something. Plus, he’s super-adventurous and is always talking about doing something that just leaves me with my jaw hanging.
Anyway, Craig and I were saying “Oh, that’s alright for THEM–we would never!” Even though my mom was a registered nurse for several years and had previously handled a home birth for a friend of hers, we didn’t really want to go that route, either.
First home birth, midwives arrived about an hour before baby made her appearance. Everything went well, but I had become a little concerned about seeing them as they obviously have new age leanings.
Next preg. We went back to these ladies because the nearest town with maternity is 40 miles away and we’ve not been terribly impressed with the obstetric offerings we’ve heard. But, I was stewing the whole pregnancy about the delivery and having non-Christians (however skilled) participating in our birth. I was praying the Lord would give us some sort of direction.
Labor started, and after about 2 and a half hours, we called the midwife and my mom. I assured everyone we had plenty of time as things had just started. Mom lives next door and arrived first, but it turned out, the kids had locked the door earlier so she couldn’t get in–Craig had to catch after a 4 hour labor.
Last preg. I found out about a Christian midwife only after I had made arrangements with the other ladies. Felt it would be wrong to change when they had done nothing technically wrong. I felt more uncomfortable than ever about non-believers attending our birth but we were determined to not wait so long before calling for help.
Half an hour into labor, I was sure we should call mom and the midwives. No way were we going to risk a replay of the previous experience. I went to take a hot shower, thinking that would help ease the pain of the contractions–asked the Lord to be merciful as I had been dreading a difficult back labor because the baby had not turned. After about 5 minutes, I had to get out because the labor was progressing so quickly. My mom beat the midwives here and this time she got to catch. Total labor 2.5 hours, no abnormal discomfort even though baby never turned.
I had to learn the hard way that God is indeed in control. He does care. He does listen when I talk to Him and I’d better be listening for His answer.
“Often, we make mistakes that lead to very unhappy consequences and the only thing we can do is turn around right where we stand and start hoofing it back to the place of obedience. And sometimes, it can take a while.”
I hope I never portray myself as a simple victim of circumstances (I know you’re not saying this but I thought I’d still say…). It would be inaccurate to say everything I’ve done is my own fault but at the same time both my husband and I, having married later in life, especially, have come together with a lifetime of very poor choices made on our own. *Tired sigh*
We are hoofing it back to a right place, but yes it certainly does take time and even though we realize we need to do things differently, we’re still in the ol’ sanctification process and are still pretty dumb in some ways : ) Plus there’s the added detail that I can’t force my husband to do anything he doesn’t want or isn’t ready to do. That could be a whole other post.
Also, even though we are “poor” by most American standards, I am well aware that the sin greed is not above us. We do live in the US after all. But yes, it is complicated. Is it sinful for us to go out to eat at IHOP when we’re deep in debt because of personal stupidity and could easily eat only homemade food? Maybe, I don’t know. Sometimes I think those occasional trips to IHOP (with a coupon) help the ol’ sanity factor : )
But yes, personal choices are a huge part of it and the consequences are real.
I’m a longtime lurker here…I just feel led to say a couple of things…
First, I am really torn about the health care reform bill. My heart aches for those who have had their financial lives destroyed because of medical bills. My own mother has trouble paying for her medications (she is on Medicare as she is in her 70′s…but she has a heart condition and a seizure disorder…her seizure medication co-pay is over $200/month alone). I am frustrated that our Congress couldn’t figure out a better solution than what was passed. I pray that some of the dire predictions I’ve read about in the last few days don’t come to pass. BTW, my family is blessed to have wonderful employer provided coverage at a very reasonable cost.
But we haven’t always been in this position and have used state medical assistance in the past. We’ve also been on WIC for about 8 years now and have used EBT (food stamps) for 5 years. I have no embarrassment at receiving this help. As someone else said, we paid and continue to pay taxes just like anyone else. And as homeschoolers, we don’t use the huge government handout of a free education for our children. Our state & district spend more each year to educate ONE child than we receive in benefits. I’m actually saving the state money, lol. It would cost the state a lot more if I put my 4 children in school so I could get a job that would cover the gap between income and expenses that EBT helps to bridge. And yes, our lifestyle is *very* frugal.
But my hubby, bless his heart, has lingering physical & mental disabilities from an accident as a young man and that limits the jobs he is capable of. So we take the help and are able to feed our children healthy food and not worry about the cupboard being empty.
Okay, this is getting long, but I wanted to let other readers hear from a mom who struggles with financial challenges but stands tall in the Lord’s grace and love.
Catherine R,
I did not assume that you were pushing off responsibility on someone else. Neither would I drop *all* the blame for your difficulties in your lap.
Our entire society is messed up and there are many things which play into the decisions we make.
As a wife, you are under your husband’s authority and can rest to a certain degree in knowing that he is the one who answers to God for making certain family decisions with which you may feel uncomfortable.
We are hoofing it back to a right place, but yes it certainly does take time and even though we realize we need to do things differently, we’re still in the ol’ sanctification process and are still pretty dumb in some ways : )
We are all being transformed into the likeness of Christ. And, as far as God’s concerned, we’re all idiots (one reason why none of us has any room to judge another).
It is the humbling, breaking and remaking of our stubborn, rock hard hearts that I believe God most wants. He wants us to love Him back with that same intense loyalty He has toward us. Jesus died so that our mistakes and the eternal consequences could be laid on Him as we become aware of those faults and confess (agree with God) that we are stupid and incapable of truly caring for ourselves. We are then able to move forward in obedience to whatever He shows us to do next. Even if the progress seems to be nothing more than a snail’s pace, if the fruit is good, we can be assured that the presence of the Spirit of God is real and active in our own lives.
That is one of the most liberating and yet hardest to accept things I’ve ever had to look at. For years, I had the idea that a true Christian didn’t make stupid mistakes or misunderstand scripture and I tended to be judgmental of others and still am overly hard on myself for not having all the right answers.
But, God didn’t say we are supposed to have “all” the answers. He said we are supposed to humble ourselves and honor and trust the One who does. He said we need to learn to be thankful for His loving care in whatever measure He sees fit to provide. That is the essence of “obedience” to God.
The “doing” seems to supernaturally grow out of the “being” and we are all in different places there.
Terry,
I so agree with you on this point… I was just thinking about that bc I know a church that is in need of repairs and that church has a few men that have carpentry skills… it seems so frivolous to me for that church to seek out bids for the work to be done when there are able people to do it.
My pastor is a college professor, actually he is an associate chair of his department. His wife has an accounting degree and is a whip in mathematics. I remember even when I was in highschool they offered ACT/SAT tutoring. We have teachers both active and retired in our church, there is no need for any child to fail a subject because there is an accessibility to help..
I just don’t get why these professionals pay large sums of money to a church for it to be large and ornate, but won’t deliver assistance in the form of a free clinic in what ever specialty you specialize in….
I know that there are some who do but for those few there are hundreds who could care less unless there was a reason to get a tax write off…
We have missons to other countries but we see no mission here in the one we live in…. Yes we are definately Laodicea and I agree with Heather in everything that she so eloquently stated…
Lord help me to better!
Public school is not a free handout from the government. Citizens pay property/school taxes, which fund at least the majority of the education. It is not a free handout. My husband and I and our extended families all pay a great deal for school taxes. Even people who rent pay school taxes indirectly, because the landlords take the rent money and use part of it to pay school taxes. It is not a free handout.
I find it interesting that just about everybody who has commented here has taken government aid in one way or another. I don’t think this is wrong.
As far as the road our government is taking, well, the Lord knows about it is all I can say. I didn’t vote for the administration that has pushed through this health care bill.
While I don’t want full-blown socialism, I have lived in and visited “third-world” countries that had no social welfare programs whatsoever, and, believe me, they are not pretty places in which to live. None of us would really want to live in such a place.
Speaking of doctors volunteering their time, my dentist and eye doctor do much volunteer work via missions organization in poor countries.
The church that my husband pastors happens not to have any professional people in it whatsoever, except for one registered nurse, who is very helpful when you ask her for advice.
Very few people here, Mary, if said anything derogatory about people who need aid or accept it. No one has argued that a safety net should be abolished.
What has been said, and I stand behind it, is that this bill was unethically passed and against the will of the American people.
I will add that our personal failings and situations not withstanding, the more we take from the hand of government, the more power they have and the less free we all are. It doesn’t matter if we need it, think it’s right, have paid taxes for it, etc. The fact remains that they create these entitlement programs and people become dependent on them.
No one said public schools were a handout either. In fact, the only mention I heard of public schools was one reader who pointed out that she does not utilize the P.S. system in the education of her children. She has a point. I should pay for the public schools. I use them. She shouldn’t because she does not. At the very least, she should get a tax credit for the curriculum she buys to equalize the playing field. As it is, she is taxed twice.
It bothers me that people find it necessary to offer the exceptions within their individual churhces for why the church can’t step up and why we must look to the government. I have said repeatedly that my suggestion was predicated on churches working together, across denominational lines in networks within cities, motivated by love for the brethren and constrained by the law of God to look out for one another.
This “we could never do it” attitude is, I believe, a direct result of 50 years of dependency on gov’t. when we get in a bind.
I stand by my original statement. The church needs to get her act together (and I include myself in that assessment). There is no reason we should be beholden to a government that is openly hostile to the Savior whom we adore in any way except the requirements of Scripture: obey the law and respect the rulers. Period.
Oops! Sorry Mary. I just saw the reference to Public Schools as a handout. Please forgive me.
No, you didn’t say that public school was a handout, Terry, one of the commenters did. Our government has a system by which all pay school taxes, even those without children. Nobody really gets to get out of it.
I left another comment on your other post. I said that churches do get together in aiding people. Ministerial alliances do this. I have never heard of anybody refused help when it could be given because they were not Baptist/Catholic/Whatever. I can’t believe that any church would do that. I’ve never seen it happen.
I do agree with you, Terry. Too much government assistance gets people relying on it too much. And I don’t approve of this health care bill. It doesn’t sound like a good deal at all to me — not for anybody. And I know that most of the commenters here were not saying that all gov’t. aid is wrong. I was challenging the idea that ALL gov’t. aid is wrong, as a couple of commenters were saying, or that public school was a free handout. It’s not.
I also think that it is interesting that some think that denominationalism is the reason churches don’t help the poor. I’ve never seen that be the problem.
There was a time in church history, remember, when there was not all of these denominations such as we have today, especially in America. It was called the Roman Catholic Church. That’s all there was. No other denominations to speak of — not like today, except for the split between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox, but there were all kinds of abuses (I’m not picking on Catholics — if any denomination, a Protestant one or whatever — were in total control the way the Catholic church was prior to the 1500′s, the same abuses would happen because of the fallen nature of man, and because absolute power corrupts absolutely.
So, I don’t see that getting rid of denominations is the antidote to the problem.
Also, families are the first that should take care of each other before burdening the church or the government.
Would anyone be interested to note that until the early 1800′s the education of American children was considered to be the responsibility of the family rather than the govt?
From what I’ve read, the situation was very similar to many of today’s homeschooling co-ops.
Exactly Heather!! Now we have a socialized education system where we are all taxed to pay for government schools. That is socialized education and yet I don’t see anyone complaining accept Voddie Baucham check his blog and you can read what he has to say on this subject.
Not to mention most of us will accept Social Security which is socialized retirement. I don’t see how we can complain about socialized medicine when we accept government schools and Social Security.
Please do not misunderstand me I am not against public schools or Social Security which is why I am not against paying taxes so that all may have healthcare. If my taxes can educate your kids I might as well keep them healthy while I am it!!
“I’m the commenter who called public schools a government “handout”. Perhaps that wasn’t the best word…but government schools are a system we *all* pay into, but not everyone benefits directly from it…just like the food stamps and medical assistance I have received. I just wanted to point out the frustration I feel when others accuse me of being a drain on society (no-one here, but on other blogs, IRL, etc) while they accept the aid of the government to educate their children. Because I personally don’t see a difference…they need help to educate, while we need help to put healthy food on the table.
I’m sorry if I offended anyone, that truly was not my intention.”