Church And State, Pt. 2: Freedom, Idolatry, and Hypocrisy

Actual Sign From A Tea Party Event

Few things capture the insanity and disingenuousness of the political hysteria in this country like the sign pictured above.  Ignorance it seems is the order of the day, followed closely by hypocrisy, not to mention a bit of heresy on the part of some in the American church.

In part 1 of this post, I stated unequivocally that there is nothing wrong or sinful about Christians standing up for what is right in the face of injustice, particularly when their right to do so is codified and established as law. Many  men have changed the world for the better doing just that, and we looked at the Apostle Paul as one example. Since Biblical and religious rhetoric has often taken center stage in this political tug-of-war, I think believers should take a moment to examine what our position should be as this political circus continues to unfold.

First, Christians must always remember  that our primary allegiance is to Our Savior, not the flag and not the Constitution. We should expect our elected leaders to govern within its guidelines, but it cannot be our primary concern. When we make a stand, our primary motivation should not be personal prosperity but a heart-felt desire for a just end even if we don’t directly benefit. If we believe in less government in our personal affairs, then we should believe that even if we fall behind on our own house payments. Anything else reeks of hypocrisy, and Paul warns us of the danger of focusing on earthly comfort:

For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ… Philippians 3: 18-20

While most of us associate this warning with the “prosperity gospel” preached from the pulpits of some of America’s wealthiest and most well-known preachers, we are increasingly hearing this “gospel” preached by  conservative commentators and others who would have us believe that Jesus cares about the how American politics affects the pocketbooks of His disciples.

The message is seductive because of its subtle ring of truth when laced with religious phrases and patriotic rhetoric, but it twists the Truth and causes those who hear the message to focus on their own comfort, prosperity, and future. These are things that we are supposed to trust to the Lord.

 I consistently vote for candidates who promise to cut taxes and reign in spending. Common sense dictates that a continuous cycle of expenditures exceeding revenue is a recipe for national disaster. Still, Jesus commanded that we render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and once the votes are counted our responsibility is to pay our taxes, trusting the Lord to provide our needs. Jesus’ command for us to pray, “Give us this day our daily bread,” wasn’t a mistake. He was not ignorant about the times in which we live. For something to be Biblically true, it must be true for all believers in all places at all times. That alone should settle once and for all the notion that Western culture and prosperity is in any way synonymous with a so-called Christian lifestyle. Baseball and apple pie are fine symbols of American culture, but they aren’t anymore Christian than paella and bull fighting.

One of my biggest problem with the hypocrisy stems from the fact that many who populate these emerging conservative movements profess Christianity. The above sign is a perfect example. I can hardly count the times during this election cycle I have seen interviews where politicians and voters alike have called for spending cuts then draw the line at the point where the cuts will affect them or their district. Everyone wants someone else to make the sacrifice.

Even the calls for family values and godly morality ring hollow when looked at through the lens of fact. I lean almost as far right as you can get, and the contradictory messages  from the religious right hamper even my ability to appreciate the merit in many of the arguments. Look at the 2008 presidential tickets.

On the “right”, for lack of a better term to describe Mr. McCain,  was candidate  married to the woman he left his first wife for and a Vice-Presidential candidate who was the mother of  very young children, not to mention a pregnant teenage daughter in crisis.

On the left, we  had two families without a hint of scandal. Strong marriages, productive adult children in the Biden family, and a potential first lady who  declared on the record that she would abandon her career to support her husband’s presidency and focus on raising their young daughters.

The views of our President and Vice-President made it impossible for most believers to vote for them, myself included. But I wonder what might have happened if Christians simply declined to vote for a ticket that was so out of step with our values. The result wouldn’t have been any worse than it turned out anyway, we could have maintained the moral high ground, and possibly made a real impact. Instead, our passion for morality and family values gave way to political expediency when we went into the voting booth.

Hindsight is 20/20 and while none of us including me, can go back and undo what we did, I am saddened to see that we don’t appear to have learned that nothing good can come from abandoning of our principles. We claim to be pro-life while blindly supporting military aggression and nation building in places where we have no business. Churches preach conservative views while falling into bankruptcy under the weight of their own debt. This is just one example among many, and why I ended my last post by saying that it is foolish of us to believe that we -speaking of the church collectively- can avoid reaping what we have sown by electing the right people to office.

Washington is a snapshot of what has happened all over the country. Our financial stupor is giving way to the next morning’s hangover, and now we want to drag out the Scriptures concerning debt, honor, and responsibility. Now we want to take responsibility for being charitable the way the Bible says; freely and without coercion. This after using our homes as ATM’s not to give to the poor, but to increase our property values (thank God our family never jumped on that bandwagon). Now we care about honor when the people we voted for President in 2008 behaved dishonorably in a number of ways. We ignored it, declaring  that we shouldn’t judge, although we would have had no problem judging if the families on the ticket we supported had a (D) after their names.

I wonder if all this compromise on the part of people of conviction serves to reveal that we have ceased from viewing our American liberty as a blessing to be used for the spreading of the gospel so long as we have it, and have instead turned it into an idol. I’ve given this a great deal of thought since I was guilty of this very thing. I  invite fellow believers to examine themselves as well. Scripture clearly reveals the purpose for the liberty we enjoy in Christ, and how we are to use whatever freedom we are blessed to enjoy:

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

I believe we should use our physical and political liberty the same way we are to use our spiritual liberty; not as a means to indulge our selfish desires, but to love others. I have no problem for standing up for what is right. I expressed that clearly in part one of this post. I believe we can and should stand up for what is right. I know that the Scriptures say  a person who wants to eat should expect to work. However when our standards are inconsistent, and our moral compass changes based on our personal conditions, we need to question whether we are truly standing up for what is right or simply pretending to for our own selfish ends. 

I’d like to examine a little more closely the thinking the above graphic indicates since I live in a state where retirees comprise a large portion of the electorate. Their voted is heavily courted. Most of the campaign ads that run, even those for state races that have no bearing on Social Security and Medicare, play on the fears of seniors concerning whether or not their benefits will be cut. Even among the Tea Party set, which is largely populated by confessed Christians, few dare to bring up the fact that Social Security as it stands today is not only unsustainable, but a financial noose around the necks of the children and grandchildren of  people who lobby heavily to preserve the status quo. Think about that for just a minute. Our nation is so addicted to entitlements and comfort that we are willing to bankrupt our own children and grandchildren!  So much for “the greatest generation.”

In this regard, I have  more respect for the people on the left than I do on the right. However illogical they are, at least they’re consistent. But for so-called conservatives (and I heard this repeatedly during the healthcare debate) to be suddenly irate that the Democrats were cutting Medicare to fund their socialized medicine floored me.  Why the outrage? I think I know, and it flies in the face of this Scriptural admonition:

Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. Phil 2:3-4

On the one hand there is grumbling and complaining about being forced to help  the less fortunate with our tax dollars. On the other hand these same people possess the disposable income to travel across the country to rally for their rights holding signs demanding that their entitlements remain untouched. It would be comical if it wasn’t so sad.

We castigate poor single and divorced mothers. I am not excusing the sin, don’t misunderstand me. Then we turn around and vote for a man who left his first wife and children and a woman who parades her pregnant unwed daughter onto the national stage to be gawked at. Besides the fact that the latter pair had enough money to keep their single mothers off the welfare rolls, what was the moral difference? 

For the Christian, there should be a higher order of thinking, and in the two years since 2008, I haven’t seen much of a shift in consciousness among the religious right. My only consolation is that if the Holy Spirit has convicted me, surely He has convicted others, too. I hope we get this message and soon. Jesus doesn’t care any more about what happens in Washington D.C than He cared about what happened in the halls of the Roman government. He had a higher mission to accomplish, and so do we.

I am far from apolitical. I look forward to casting my vote next week and will certainly  enjoy the spectacle if this election leads to a shift in the balance of power in our nation’s capital. I prefer gridlocked Washington government with the balance of power split over what we’ve had the past 2 years. As horrible as that sounds, I think it’s better that nothing get done than the wrong things get done.

Despite  my political passions and opinions my faith demands that I keep a proper perspective. That I am careful not to identify more with being an American than with being a Christian. I need to be especially careful not to apply dishonest scales, using one standard to weigh those whose politics lines up with mine, another standard to those whose politics don’t line up with mine.

This type of behavior does not reflect well on us, or on the Savior we claim to represent. We would do well to remember that.

In other words, the next time I’ll just write Ron Paul on the ballot and walk away with my conscience intact.

52 Responses to Church And State, Pt. 2: Freedom, Idolatry, and Hypocrisy

  1. Excellent Terry. Ouch and Amen! …this is what I have been dealing with in my heart and mind since 2007. There has to be a balance and it’s the Truth of the Scripture. This really got me, “Our nation is so addicted to entitlements and comfort that we are willing to bankrupt our own children and grandchildren! So much for ‘the greatest generation.’”.
    I agree, and more discussion(not you necessarily) needs to tke place among us with how to deal with elderly and disabled care without gov’t help. We did it before, though it wasn’t easy or convenient, but it was done with joy. My ninety year old Grandmother can attest to that. Christians do have options if we turn and ask God for the answers and not be afraid of the Truth.
    Thanks for the article. Now you should know better than to mention RP in your writings. It’s like holy water to most on the left AND right ;) . Grace and Peace.
    Lisa

  2. Lisa! It’s been a long time since I’ve heard from you, sister. Thanks for commenting.

    I agree, and more discussion(not you necessarily) needs to take place among us with how to deal with elderly and disabled care without gov’t help.

    This is one subject I stumbled into accidentally as I saw elderly Tea Party folks on television railing about taxes and government spending. It just struck me as highly hypocritical, given that S.S. and Medicare are two of the biggest government expenditures. The idea that we can cut spending in other places without touching the growth of thsoe two is like trying to put a band-aid on a bullet wound.

    Did you see what happened in France when the subject of raising the retirement age is even mentioned? Rioting in the streets!! Like I said, everyone wants someone else to make the sacrifice.

    That said, the breakdown of the family has made these programs a necessary part of American life. They are certainly not going away, and they probably shouldn’t for the most vulnerable and needy among us. But I absolutely agree with you that at least in the church, there should be some attempt to provide for our elderly adn disabled the way the Scriptrue outlines. No one even discusses it, though. I knw I’ve never heard it mentioned in my church. Of course, using the Biblical definition of widowhood, not may people would meet the standard for church assistance. Whic takes us right back to the breakdwon of the family and the need for some of these government programs.

    As for the Ron Paul point, I could have just as easily said Chuck Baldwin, but how many people know who he is??? My point, which I’m sure you understood, was that I’d rather have a “wasted vote” than betray my conscience (again).

  3. Hello! I have no problem with voting for smaller government etc etc. but sometimes I wonder who really is the most pro-life. I live in a state where our Republican representative to the House voted against a bill that would give our public school children the same rights not to be tied up and locked into closets that patients in hospitals and other institutions receive. He voted against it because of his belief in “states’ rights.”

    I believe our state, Missouri, was not giving the civil rights our children ALREADY deserve under the US Constitution and therefore a vote for the bill was in order. The fellow obviously was intentionally ignorant when he said that local people and teachers are wonderful and vote for me and here I am posing at a local school etc. etc.

    So am I a hypocrite for wanting a national “no locking kids into closets and tying them up unless there is a dire emergency” law at the federal level? Maybe I am! Maybe I really am. But I’m living in a district where the “majority” seem to like the paddling rules that are still on the books at our local high school, too.

    Terry, I am one wacko liberal against discipline in the schools. Did you know that?? :)

  4. Mrs. C,

    I know you are a big supporter of bills that grant rights to autistic and disabled children who are routinely mistreated in public schools. I agree with you 100%. However, I do believe this should be handled by individual states at the state level, not the federal level.

    Your crusade is an issue that transcends “right” and “left”, and this post is specifically about the glaring contradictions within the conservative religious right; what we say we believe and how we vote, or how we only often believe that the sacrifices are for someone else.

    In other words, I’m not sure how your specific example fits within the parameters of this post. I am open though and invite you to tie it together if you can. Do you believe the church should be more vocal on this issue for spiritual reasons? I think most of us, without special needs kids, are simply unaware.

  5. Just over six months ago, we left a very politically active church that was involved in all the local tea parties in the county. That pastor would open them with prayer. What got me was how mean they were, and how much they were really only interesting in preserving their money, which they all had a lot of.

    Honestly I also don’t understand how churches in America use what they claim to be the “worship” services to sing patriotic American songs and then talk about the constitution. If we were REALLY having a worship service, really interested in worshipping God, would we not sing songs about HIM?

    I also don’t understand how people can claim to be against abortion, but then say that it is ok to go to war and kill people that are already born. If they really cared about life, would they not care as much about the lives of people who are already born as they are about the unborn? What about all that stuff in the New Testament where Jesus tells us to do GOOD to them that despitefully use us, or persecute us, rather than blowing them up or shooting them? What about where He says “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”? What about “vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord”? Why not just “humble ourselves, and pray, and seek His face, so that He will hear from heaven and heal the land”? In short, why not just live as Christ wanted us to live, humble ourselves, be right with God, and allow GOD to take care of the problems? (Yes, I’m a pacifist and will be posting on that some time in the near future, I’ve been working on it for a while).

    Why are these people so worried about their “right” to own guns? I’m actually all for gun control. If you are a hunter, license your guns. Most people I know that have guns have them for “self-defense”. They’ve said to me “so if someone breaks into your house, are you going to just let them steal your stuff when you could kill them?” This horrifies me. They would really kill someone over “stuff”? Stuff can be replaced, people cannot. The Bible says “thou shalt not kill”. What makes the life of the person who is threatening me any less important than my own life? At least I know where I’m going.

    Anyway, I’ve written a really long comment so I’ll leave it here even though there is so much more to say.

  6. I’m not a pacifist, Mrs. W, although I appreciate much of your comment. Not willing to sacrifice the lives of my kids to some criminal. Nope. They can have my stuff, though many criminals aren’t satisfied with just taking your stuff. You can pray for me, I guess.

    Loved your point about politics in the church. I agree 100%.

  7. That said, the breakdown of the family has made these programs a necessary part of American life.
    Improved technology and better access to health-care may actually play a bigger part. In the past many people would not be alive having faced the medical crisis and problems they have today. Open heart surgery, cancer treatment, a wide variety of pharmaceutical drugs, trauma treatment, preventative care, the list goes on. All of this is expensive and often would be out of the means of the average American family without the aid of some sort of cost sharing plan, whether that be Medicare or private insurance.

    This is not to denigrate the rest of your comment; just simply to highlight to fact that correlation does not imply causation. For many medical issues that face the elderly, even an intact family hoping to provide home care will require medical equipment, hospice support, and/or home nursing help that is costly.

  8. I’m not saying I “wouldn’t” try to harm someone who tried to hurt my family, but I hope I would do right and just make them incapable of doing what they intended to do, not actually killing them. Though I’m sure the thought would cross my mind and it would possibly happen, I don’t think it would be right. If that makes any sense. I actually just pray none of us ever have to face anything like this.

    About the abortion/war issue…my husband has a friend who wrote a note on Facebook calling Christians hypocrites and hateful because we are so against abortion but all for war, normally. His friend was glad to learn that there are a few Christians that don’t believe in either. In his friend’s mind, killing is killing and he couldn’t justify to himself why Christians thought it ok to kill already born people but not the unborn. I could see his points even though I didn’t agree with his conclusions.

  9. I agree with you Terry.

    “If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
    ~Exodus 22:2 “

  10. Your friend’s issue may not so much be with other Christians but with the Bible itself.

    The Bible actually justifies defending the innocent, killing, defending your neighbor, and a myriad other defense situations that may involve killing. The OT also discusses many battles led by men who were beloved people of God and circumstances in which God killed to defend his chosen people. There are also mentions of virginity tests, women being taken as war booty, and other such happenings that were typical in the Middle East at the time (and remain so in the minds of some groups even today).

    In the NT there is a passage in which Jesus praises a centurion for his faith and does not tell him to lay down his arms. There are mentions of Jesus’ righteous anger coming out in situations that were not pacifist, including flipping the table of the moneychangers. Even when he speaks of “turning the other cheek”, taking this in context of decorum and insults from that part of the world at the time, and even today, this is not a peaceful action but a grave insult. One that could be compared to the showing of the middle finger in our culture, back when that finger actually meant a deep insult, not the rather frivolous display it is now.

    With that said, I do look forward to your piece of pacifism, my friend, even if I do not agree. :)

  11. Pingback: Berean Wife » Christians and the Government

  12. Now Terry this post completely and accurately outlines the point I was making in our email correspondence. I agree 100% with everything stated here (a rare occurrence for any blog post).

    Regarding the 2008 election you know my stance there and the many comments I left on this blog calling for all Christians to turn away from the McCain/Palin ticket. I cast my vote proudly for Chuck Baldwin. Since the election I have considered myself more of an independent than ever. I no longer call myself a conservative, I take no label but that of Christ, and I vote based on biblical principal alone. Not just some biblical principals (abortion, sanctity of marriage); but all (caring for the poor, lack of greed or hypocrisy, etc.).

    It is time Christians wake up and realize that the left is just as sinful as the right. The sins are different on each side but all sins are despicable in the eyes of the Lord. We as Christians have lost our way, we have been deceived by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck into believing that the way they espouse on their entertainment shows is the right way. We have been led astray by politicians that have drummed it into our head that an (R) after a name means the person shares Christian values. Finally we have allowed ourselves to be corrupted by our own greed and sense of entitlement. We have actually come to believe that since we have gotten our education, worked hard, payed our bills and accepted Christ that we are somehow entitled to a comfortable middle class lifestyle. When that lifestyle is threatened we are exposed for the sinful, greedy people we are when we grab signs filled with hypocrisy and anger and go out to protect that which matters most to us, OUR MONEY!!!

    When was the last time as many Christians gathered with signs to spread the gospel? Jesus told us in the Great Commission to spread the gospel. Would that we put as much energy into that as we do protecting our wealth and way of life.

    As I have been saying for at least a year or so now on this blog and elsewhere we have gone astray!! Lord have mercy on us all. Check my comments on this blog around the election time. I hope many Christians wake up and start serving Christ and not themselves. Drop the idols!!

    And just in case someone is tempted into thinking this is easy for me to say because I have not lost in the economic downturn, my husband and I finished having a house built to our specification in March of 2007 just before the bottom dropped out. To date we estimate we have lost $100,000 in the value of our home. Does this make us happy, of course not!! But our joy is in the Lord not money and we have lost NO part of what truly matters so we are not angry, we are not holding up signs. For all we have lost we know we have gained so much more in Christ and that is all that matters!!!

  13. I had a big long comment typed up in agreement with your main post, Terry, and the internet ATE IT! Serves me right for commenting on rabbit trails first. *smirks*

    So rather than type the words all out again, I’ll just nod and agree with you and Taunya. :)

    WRT Glenn Beck in particular, some research into his theological beliefs are very enlightening and put into perspective much that he espouses. He is not LDS is the typical sense of the word but clings to beliefs that are much darker. Please do a quick google search for “Cleon Skousen”. Sean came across this nonsense several months ago and we were both deeply disturbed by what we learned. Christians should RUN, not walk, away from his broadcasts and influence.

  14. Amy I have never heard of Cleon Skousen I will be looking into this thanks, and thanks to your husband for being willing to truly educate himself when it comes to politics and those seeking to gain favor with Christian voters! Being Christian does not mean being gullible!

  15. Amy, I believe that God used war in the Old Testament as His judgment on certain nations. In fact, it’s not much different today. But if we read the teachings of Jesus on the subject, it’s totally different. What God has Israel do, under the law, is different to what He expects us to do who are under grace. The Old Testament (covenant) was a covenant God had with the Jews. I’m not saying to write if off, because it has lots of things to teach us. The Bible says “those things that were written aforetime were written for your learning”.

    However, we are under a new covenant (the New Testament) with God, and now it’s all about what Jesus taught and what God expects of us now that Jesus died and rose again and we are under grace.

    I have trouble with some of the Old Testament in that it is so mean and cruel, and how the same God who told people to do those kinds of things now treats us with grace. It doesn’t make sense, and I don’t know if it will ever make sense. I don’t understand why God only had Israel as His chosen people either.

    All I know is what I read and what I believe the Bible teaches. The thing is, it’s amazing how the concept of pacifism has changed the entire way I think and treat people. It’s amazing. If you have money to spare for books, you should read “A Change of Allegiance” by Dean Taylor. It IS a Mennonite author I believe. He and his wife were in the army when they had a change of heart and had to go through the whole process of getting a discharge based on change of beliefs. You probably won’t agree with it, but it is an interesting read.

    Anyway, I won’t go anymore into all the repercussions this has had in my life as I don’t want to hijack here any more than I have already. And because I have been working on an article to this effect and I want people to come to my blog and read it in its entirety haha.

  16. Terry,

    I’ve actually heard my mom say she’ll let my generation and the next figure it all out and clean up after what’s come before. At least Glenn Beck’s encouraged homeschooling and grandmothers to help their daughters. His saying there’s propaganda in the schools has finally garnered her support (I’ve been talking about it for three years now). It may facilitate the next few years if she’s wholeheartedly in support.

    Amen to pro-life, yet pro-war. I’m not 100% pacifist, but I have leanings. I do live in a home with guns. I am thankful to live in a country where I can defend those unbiblical, yet political “rights” with arms. If a man breaks into my home, he most likely intends harm & I will shoot him to protect my children. Killing is not murder. That confessed, I am sickened at our involvement in the Middle East. It’s not that cut & dry to me. We are supposed to bless Israel, but I question much of what goes on over there and how we deal with it. I question the “news” we are fed by networks and news produced by Jews who have a vested interest in what we support. I suspect that our interests in oil have much to do with our involvement. I’ve heard first hand reports of atrocities & read much that makes me not want to support Israel. I am ambivalent about the situation of Muslim immigrants. I hate the lie that is Islam, but am repulsed by the hate I hear being spewed at those who have made this a home and those bothered that they are Muslim first, American second. That’s what we are too and I won’t give up my faith for my nation. Anyway, I ramble. Great post.

  17. I think that religion is a just as important piece of personal information in order to know something about someone as nationality is. :) So I don’t understand either why people get upset or assume someone is “un-American” because they have religious beliefs they don’t like.

  18. Nice post Terry.

    I am a immigrant and I do not have the constitution, political, historical knowledge or perspective most people posting on this topic have . So my apologies if I am wrong about something. I am not very clear on what exactly separation of church and state mean except in its most simplest form which I take it to mean secular laws and not biblical ones will be the law of the land.

    If what I assume is correct, I am a christian, but I am ok with this separation. For two reasons.
    1. First of all, who do I trust ? Politicians who say they are christians, even ‘family value’ ones and flaunt their families for every photo op and then cheat on their wives and do not live out their faith. Should what they do in their personal lives matter at all to me ? Or should their abilities alone matter ? I have come to the conclusion that I do not trust any politician’s word about their ‘values’. But will look at their background, education and decide whom to vote for. The alternative to choosing regular politicians would be church leaders. But how can I trust the leaders around me when politicians seem like saints compared to our prominent church leaders. If it comes between a choice of not exercising my vote or voting based on abilities and not ‘values’ or ‘character’, I’d pick voting as I think voting is a privilege which so many countries do not have. I will pray and cast my vote. The rest is up to God.
    2. I am an immigrant from a democratic country where I was a minority. My birth family still lives there and so do my inlaws. I have seen what can be classified as fundementalist ideology parties belonging to a different religion can do and frankly it is a very scary thing if you do not belong to the majority. We had stones thrown at church once during christmas because a famous politician belonging to this party died around that time and it was very scary. Extremes exist in every religion and I for one would not want any person with extreme views of any religion including christianity to hold any sort of power. We cannot say it will never happen in America. We have seen people misuse the name in the Lord in cults all the time and they are some of the most charismatic people. I for one would rather have the checks and balances of a secular democracy with the freedom to worship my God, preach and so on.

    I personally come from a multi-party democracy. I would really like more options than the two party system.

  19. Regarding medicare and other such government programs…one of the reasons there is such an outcry (although I do find the graphic you posted sadly humorous) is that medicare is rather poorly funded and mismanaged already. Do you know that medicare will pay for certain safety equipment after a senior has fallen down and broken their hip, but before such an injury occurs? There is also the fact that medicare and social security take a good size portion out of paychecks, so it’s not exactly people wanting something for nothing.

  20. No Nurse Bee, it’s not wanting something for nothing, but Social Security is not the retirement savings account people are led to believe it is. People who pay in today are having the money be paid to beneficiaries…today. The courts, if memory serves me and I hope Amy can help us out with this one, have already ruled that Social Security is just another program paid for with taxes. In other words, it serves the same function that say, property taxes with respect to people who pay them but do not use government schools. It’s not what we have been traditinally led to believe it is, although that perception stubbornly hangs on. I think it makes people feel better about balking whenever the issue of reform comes up.

    Social Security pays much more than just elderly retirees. Disabled children (who haven’t paid in), mentally ill people (whether they have paid in or not) and others all draw on SS benefits. Again, not making a judgment of this either way. Just stating the facts.

    I’m not against SS and Medicare per se. I’m just saying that for those on the right to decry government spending and then want to cling to the biggest deficit producing programs we have is illogical at best and hypocritical at worst.

    @ The rest of y’all: Than ks for weighing in. I appreciate all teh thoughts and as ususal, Amy, your knowledge enhances the discussions. I’ve had a terribly busy day which I haven’t adhered to my customary routine of acknowledging all the comments individually.

    Keep the insights coming though, because I think we need to do some soul searching with regard to how political we should really be as Christians.

  21. great post Terry…. I don’t know anything else that could be added…..

  22. My post should have read “…but NOT before an injury occurs.”

    My paycheck still marks SS (and medicare) as a seperate amount than regular taxes…

  23. That sign is priceless in a sad sort of way. I saw it and said “what idiot…..?”

    You were in a tough position during the last presidential election, Terry. It was easy for me to vote my conscience here in blood red AL but I may have done the same thing you did had I been in your shoes. Voting your conscience is a lovely thing though. I left the poles with a big smile on my face in 2008.

  24. To the folks who dismiss Skousen, you really should read for yourselves. The 5000 Year Leap is an amazing insight into American excellence, by way of Christianity in no small part. As far as “google-ing”, Google and Wikipedia aren’t sources, they’re advertisements for sources (just like Glenn Beck is) and there’s an important difference. I’m not LDS, nor the Beck fan I once was, but
    I think it’s a little…well…phobic? when I consider the Beck-phobia that seems to be the default. He’s a drama-hound, to be sure, and I don’t have the time to defend him, and that’s a different conversation. The man is informed with regard to political matters. There’s no denying that.

    I used the term “default” in my first paragraph, and I think that sums up what I see as the root of the problem with regard to the topic…
    we accept the default, whatever has become normalized, as the “right” or the “oh, well”…even if it isn’t, and then set our lens based on that erroneous standard.

    I can’t agree that because stashing our elderly in nursing homes/living off public assistance/abortion in difficult situations/accepting all government wrongs as “Caesar “/crazy-bad public “education”/some parents don’t home school the way I want…etc,etc,etc. has become acceptable in our current culture means that is the standard I have to accept and pay for. All are unequivocally wrong. There’s not a verse in the Bible that endorses willful ignorance.

    “Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth”. I believe that, I’m trying to live it, because it’s a directive by my Creator, and the ultimate statement of the synergy between provision and abundance.. But taken out of context, and used as an intentional means of defying a most basic Commandment, …uh-huh.

    And not to belabor the “Caesar” issue – but it’s important to realize that we (in the US) don’t live under Caesar – getting out from under such was part of the point! It’s a theo-political construct that requires the leader in power to understand himself to be (a) god. For all the things I could blister them about, I’m not prepared to suggest that any of our contemporary Presidents saw himself as such. Our system of government is soulless. In a good way.

    My personal voting factor? Any American politician who votes to obfuscate life cannot, or will not, observe with any consistency any constitutional matter presented. If the primacy of life is not honored, without which none of the other inalienable rights can be realized, I can’t trust. And that’s why I can vote for McCain and Palin. A lovely adopted daughter, and a son who is imperfect. And so are we all. Fundamental respect for personhood is the only way to get to where we as Christians want to go.

  25. @ Cottage Child: I wasn’t the one to bring up Glenn Beck, as you know, and I am not Beck-phobic. I agree with you that as far as political matters, he is pretty savvy. I don’t watch him as much as I used to, but when I did, I use to fact check his intel, and never found it lacking. I don’t think he’s dramatic as much as he is passionate, and at least he’s funny. I’ve said here before, and continue to say, that I think he is a valid political voice and does people like me a service. He asks the questions no one else dares to ask, and I appreciate that about him.

    My problem with him began when he started interjecting religion into his delivery. The ideas that have been painted as “Christian” in many cases aren’t Christian any more than the socialism the left paints as Christian are Christian. Does that make sense?

    I agree with you about tax payer funded abortion, and a couple of the other things you mentioned. It was never my intent to imply that these things are right, nor that we shouldn’t vote our conscience. We most definitely should, and as I said in part one, we should also stand up for what is right. But there is s clear limit to how much of ourselves we should invest in this system. Investing too much leads to a focus on wordly comfort and you get the kind of hypocrisy that the above sign illustrates. Given that these perilous times are clear Biblical signs of the last days, the worse things get, the lighter our grip should be on earthly concerns.

    As for Caesar. Let’s look at the passage of Scripture where Jesus said that timeless phrase from Mark 12:

    Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in His words. When they had come, they said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Shall we pay, or shall we not pay?”
    But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, “Why do you test Me? Bring Me a denarius that I may see it.” So they brought it.
    And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
    And they marveled at Him.

    Obviously, we are not under Caesar, but the principle holds just the same. The inscription on our money is the inscription of our government. Not Jesus, not Scripture, but the seal of the U.S. government. It is legal tender. “Render unto Uncle Sam the things that are his…”

    Like I said, we should vote our conscience and we should certainly stand up for what is right. But when our role in the process is complete, the Christian thing to do is obey the law, pray, stay informed, and yes inform others, so that when our role comes up again, we can do well.

    As for McCain-Palin: I am convinced that the outcome of 2008 was the best thing to happen to this country in terms of awakening people to where we are headed. McCain was a moderate, code word for leftist, but not as left as the Democrat.. In the end, the idea of a nursing mother a heartbeat from the presidency should have given all of us pause. And my reference to the two families was only to contrast the families of the President and Vice-President. Let’s be real here. We all KNOW that if the Obama and Biden families looked like the McCain and Palin families, the religious right would have had a field day with their “family values” smear campaign. We all know it’s true. But because we were fearful of what the other side would do to the country, we turned a blind eye even as we uncomfortably watched a teenage girl and her “troubled” boyfriend dragged into the national spotlight for the sake of political power and votes.

    None of us is perfect, no, but not all of us are asking for the whole country to put its faith in us. Perfection isn’t required to be a politician, but we need to at least be marginal models of the banners we hold high.

  26. Terry,

    You bring up some very interesting points and those worthy of thinking about. I’ve been contemplating lately the joining together of Christianity and Americanism. Growing up here in the Deep South our churches combine patriotism and Christianity often, especially for children and for patriotic holidays. It was considered un-Christian to not fully support America in all it did.

    “Despite my political passions and opinions my faith demands that I keep a proper perspective. That I am careful not to identify more with being an American than with being a Christian.”

    Oh, I so agree!

    Thus my reconsidering things like the pledge and many patriotic songs. Much to ponder ….

    Berean Wife

  27. I have read Cleaon Skousen’s work for myself, as has my husband. Much of his work is largely influenced by his non-mainstream LDS eschatology and for this reason very troubling. If Skousen’s work is placed into the context of his professed religion beliefs and paired with a read of “The Book of Mormon”, a Q&A session with LDS missionaries, and a text or two of basic LDS beliefs, one may walk away with a much different feeling about the opinions presented in “The 5000 Year Leap”.

    If thoughtful, in-depth research is “phobic” and a “default” I suppose I am guilty as charged.

  28. Thanks for your well-researched thoughts, Amy ;) . I appreciate them as I haven’t read Skousens’ work nor have a I read The 5,000 Year Leap.

    What I have read is the Bible, and Mr. Beck’s attempt at linking the founding father’s and the Constitution to “real” Christianity has left me wanting, weary, and skeptical.

    As I said in the post, Christians have to be very careful not to confuse American culture and traditions with Biblical Christian faith. Even the phrase “American exceptionalism” has begun to leave a bad taste in my mouth. Not because I don’t believe that this American experiment is exceptional. It most definitely is, in almost every conceivable way when compared to the rest of the world.

    It’s just that as a Christian, I’m not sure how to reconcile the concept of being exceptional as an American with the truth of Scripture when the Bible makes it clear, first to Peter, then Paul, and in other places throughout the Scripture, that God is “no respecter of persons”. This combination of Americanism and Christianity as somehow synonymous is a very dangerous thing.

  29. Great thoughts, Terry. And of course with a too lengthy comment, I forgot to agree with you that there is wrong thinking in becoming so heavily invested in the political – worldly comfort is contrary, ultimately, to the Christian walk.

    My paragraph about Beck wasn’t meant to be a fuss, and re-reading I think it sounded that way (and I do realize you didn’t bring it up, either way). I’m very sorry! I’m out of patience with him, for the reasons you mentioned, and I think most of us with children could do without our tv personalities whining and carrying on (oh my goodness!). It was more of an encouragement, really, he has researched some excellent sources and I wouldn’t dismiss them out of hand for dislike of the messenger. Yes, he’s better when he leaves matters of religion to the experts and stays confined to the radio. I pray for his conversion and my sense of humor.

    My stance with regard to McCain/Palin was not meant to be an endorsement. Yes, I think Barack Obama is about as wrong for the country as they come, politically speaking…that said, I don’t think there would have been a dime’s difference between him and McCain. Maybe Health Care Reform would have looked a little different, but not very.

    I don’t think right should continue to trade on ” at least I tried and I love Jesus” any more than the left should trade on “I know it’s wrong but it’s in your best interest.” And of course the Republican Party would have used any flaw they could have found with regard to the personal lives of Obama/Biden. That goes w/o saying. My point was more to aligning with an underlying philosophy – for example, I can’t take Barack Obama seriously with regard to human rights issues when in his own words babies are punishments according to his standard of social convenience. There is an inconsistency there (which is shared by many politicians, Pres. Obama just happened to be the one who famously made the statement) that is fundamental. John McCain was wrong (understatement), Bristol Palin was wrong AND was failed (understatement) by her family, but no one died for a deliberately manipulated understanding of compassion in the process. I guess that’s the crisis of conscience that I can’t reconcile. Imperfectly pro-life trumps shiny pro-abortion, for me.

  30. There is a good reason why Beck takes this faith mixed with politics stance, particularly his beliefs about the Constitution and Founding Fathers. The LDS believe America is God’s Promised Land. They believe the Constitution was inspired by God and is a divine document much like the Book of Mormon. Mormon eschatology mentions that before Jesus can return, New Jerusalem must be founded in the state of Missouri and then the Lord can return to live among the people on our restored planet. (I’d be happy to email along some links. All of this is pretty easily found on the official ‘What Mormons Believe” and LDS.org websites. A door-to-door missionary is also happy to discuss it all too. haha)

    There exists a prophecy by Joseph Smith based off Revelations 6 that states the US will be saved by an important LDS who stands up for the Constitution when the document is in trouble. Several sources state this is not part of the official canon; others dictate that it is. The LDS missionaries we invited to dinner to hear their spiel referred to the prophecy as the “white horse prophecy” and one thought Romney might be the man. So we take that prophecy as the many that Christian layman come up when pondering Revelations themselves.

    The more I’ve personally studied about Mormonism, the more I’m amazed to see the parallels in belief that seem to exist between politically active churches/denominations and the LDS church. During a recent coffee/book club night at our house, one of our friends wondered if our “homegrown faith” of Mormonism has actually informed the beliefs of many Christians without them fully realizing this reality. LDS beliefs are uniquely American not only due to the belief of the USA as the Promised Land but also the pioneering, pull yourself up by your boot straps spirit that is much of America.

    Just for laughs, may I add I began researching the LDS immediately following our wedding. The moment I changed my last name, their genealogists began contacting me to register in their books. Quite a few people also think I’m Mormon. “Your last name is X and you can food!” If you’re going to be routinely mistaken for “one of them” might as well learn what they are all about. :)

  31. @ Cottage Child: Seems we are not as far apart as it first appeared. By the way, I could never in good conscience vote for a ticket with such radical views on abortion as Mr. Obama has expressed and even voted for as an Illinois legislator. I was simply pointing out that for all the right’s fearmongering of him as the devil incarnate, it was he and Mr. Biden whose families looked more like the ideals we preached.
    Further, imperfect pro-life was fine, and it was one of the reasosn why I voted the McCain ticket, but I could have voted for Paul, or Baldwin, or someone whose views more closely aligned with my own. Why didn’t I? Out of fear of the Democratic ticket, not confidence in the GOP ticket. Should Christians be doing anything out of fear?

    As for abortion, I have some thoughts on the issue that I may or may not share because they would certainly rub women the wrong way. But Roe v. Wade isn’t going away so we have to decide whether to save some babies or none. Now that I’ve opened the can of worms, maybe I’ll go all the way with my last post before I blow this popsicle stand for a couple of months.

    @ Amy: Yes, please send me the links. I need to brush up. I knew that LDS began in America, but I had no idea that Ameria and Americanism was such a central tenet of the faith. Wow!

  32. “Why didn’t I? Out of fear of the Democratic ticket, not confidence in the GOP ticket. Should Christians be doing anything out of fear?”

    I’m right there with you…fear is more than a little tiresome. It leads to some awfully bad decisions, and it’s a difficult habit to break. I’d like to break the cycle with Herman Cain, if he’ll run….

    I would love to hear your thoughts on the life issue, however, I did not intend to drag your thread off into that, merely giving the first/best example I could offer. I do have my own personal litmus test, which may or may not be practical. It is certainly not expedient, politically.

  33. Amy, could you email me the links to some of the info? What you are saying makes so much sense…

  34. Amy I would love to have the links concerning Glenn Beck, Mormonism, and Americana. It has been discouraging to see so many Christians running around saying “God and country” as if the two are related or as if love of country is somehow related to being a Christian. Nothing could be further from the truth. Also this idea that the U.S. is somehow a chosen nation second only to Israel or that God has some special blessing on us. I like Terry recognize the unique qualities of our nation but I do not think it is somehow “special” in the eyes of God or under some “special” divine protection. It is interesting in my estimation that the only religion conceived on our soil would have this aspect of Americana in it. I would love to study it in relation to the affect it may have had on the way Americans think and why so many are convinced that the U.S. is “God’s country.”

    Also with regard to voting I agree with Cottage Child that voting for ANYONE who would support laws to make abortion legal is not something that a Christian should do. However I also do not believe that Christians should vote for others who support laws that are sinful in other ways, oppression of the poor, etc. I will not vote for the lesser of two evils anymore than I would choose to attend a party or a church or participate in anything that is the lesser of two evils. When I am not offered a God honoring choice I simply abstain or in the case of voting write in a name. As a Christian I am to avoid sin, period.

    We must remember we are not going to prevent evil from taking over for a time even if we choose to sin by voting for a candidate that is the lesser of two evils. We know per Revelations and Thessalonians that a chain of events has been started that will involve things becoming ever more dark until the return of Christ. Nothing will stop this! We achieve nothing when we vote against our conscience accept voting for something we know is wrong. We can not stop the increasing darkness, even if Billy Graham were elected, and we should not want to because at the end is the light, Christ. Vote your conscience and stay true to Christ’s teachings as your pray for His swift return.

  35. Thanks, Taunya, for weighing and I’m glad you appreciated my thoughts about the problems inherent in the idea of American exceptionalism.

    I need to clarify something on the abortion issue. I, too, could NEVER vote for a pro-abortion candidate. I was referring to something totally different, a rabbit trail that emerged in my own mind when the subject of abortion came up. Thoughts I should have kept to myself, lol, until I was ready to elaborate. I usually do a much better job of staying on point, lol.

  36. I look forward to your post on abortion. I have lots more I would like to clarify about my thoughts/questions on abortion, but I do not want to derail this thread.

    In short
    1. It is not so black and white for me
    2. Nothing to do with feminism or a woman’s right to her body.
    3. Do not believe in or support abortion for me personally. Whatever the situation,even if we had been given a ‘disabled child’. But clarification, I have ‘healthy’ children and I we limited our family.
    4. I was very ambivalent before, but really had to see examine why I support what I support. in Rape/Incest/Poverty (have seen abortion used as birth control by poor, uneducated women) and specifically the church’s response in a very specific case made me say it is not black/white.

    I do not do labels.But if I am pushed, pro-life personally/pro-choice for others if that even makes sense. Would really like to discuss more with christian women if given a chance. Thanks Terry.

  37. Thank you so much for making me think more deeply about issues . I used to be an extreme liberal I think!! Until I had children and then I thought I had turned into a Republican overnight!! The past 3 or 4 years I feel like I realize that these labels don’t exactly fit, and you help me see why. Gosh I spend a lot of time at the voting booth now…hahaha

  38. Great post!
    Thank you for posting this.

    I always learn something new from this blog …

    Regards,
    Jack from Hearing Aid Reviews

  39. Anonymous age 68

    Before you criticize the Medicare bunch, please make sure you understand what is involved. Do you imagine they simply want free medical care?

    That may be true in some cases. But, it is not that simple. Once one turns 65, even if you have a vault full of money, you are Medicare qualified. Good ole’ Hilary got a law passed while Bill was president, which affects those who are Medicare qualified.

    Any doctor who treats Medicare patients, and receives government payments for that, and within a year or two, I forget the time period, accepts cash payment from a Medicare qualified person has just committed a major Federal felony, and will spend several years in prison.

    So, unless one can find a doctor who does not accept Medicare patients at all, one cannot pay cash if he wishes. And, that is assuming he has enough money to pay cash for his medical care. That is, they are captive of the Medicare system.

    So, you force large quantities of human beings on Medicare whether they want it or not, then start cutting back on it. Yeah, I can see where some folks might react negatively.

    I live mostly in Mexico. I am 68, I am Medicare qualified, I haven’t touched mine yet after three years, though I am paying what they tell me to pay each month. Proper diet and exercise and I don’t need the doctor. If I do ever need one, I will pay cash here in Mexico.

    As far as freedom of choice, there are a number of comments in the Bible about people who try to do evil to others, eventually being treated the way they have treated others. The book of Esther is a great example, there are others.

    Women should have exactly the same freedom of choice they give men. NONE AT ALL. Once a man has sex he has no choices left. That is the choice women should have, and will have when God allows this nation to receive its just deserts.

    A woman can, after choosing to have sex; have an abortion; can give the child up for adoption with no financial responsibility at all. After the child gets older, she can still do that.

    There are men in their 60′s and 70′s who lost their jobs when their kids were young, and now their kids are mature adults, self sufficient, with high interest charges will never be allowed to stop working as long as they can walk. And, when they can’t the female designed system will trot them off to prison like criminals. Their income merely pays on the interest charges, and not a cent goes for past support. No bankruptcy ever.

    I could write a book about the abuses heaped on men, to support their children, even if they never see them, while millions of women, with the same legal obligation to support their kids, receive a check, from the tax payers and no bill from the government at all.

    Yet, any attempt to even discuss these issues subjects a man to every possible insult and threat.

    So, yes, no freedom of choice for women. That is what they deserve.

  40. @ Anonymous Age 68,

    Thanks for commenting. And thank you for the clarification about Medicare. I didn’t know it was not a option seniors couldn’t choose to forgo. I still think the sign above is pretty ironic, but I appreciate your additional insights.

    As for abortion, you’re stealing my thunder, here, lol. I agree with you 100%. I hope to get into it at a later date. Stay tuned.

  41. Pingback: This,That and the Other: A Post About Nothing In Particular | Breathing Grace

  42. May I add to the conversation that the LDS were PART of what I’ll call an exceptionalist movement in the western frontier expansion? It’s a cult, and generally cults attach themselves emotionally to benefit their cause – it didn’t help that they were marked for assassination by the government – enable false martyrdom , much? It seems to be a pattern.

    I think, though, it’s important to recognize that the founders considered the nation one under God…not based in Christianity, necessarily, but certainly the Judeo-Christian ethic, up to and including work,eat don’t work,don’t eat, along with other decidedly Biblical principles, informed the framers. I don’t think that premise can be separated from the inception of the Constitution. Personal excellence, and a united excellence, as we’re called to by God, was a “given” if one was to experience the American Experiment in its fullness. A created dependent class is entirely different than the Biblical concept of the poor. Yes there are politics involved, but Christ wasn’t apolitical. I cringe just a little when I hear of the mistreatment of the poor, etc, when many of us choose burdensome mortgages over the manageable, and payments over saving, and then turn to those who haven’t chosen those things to provide “charity”.

    I found just as many articles to refute the links as I did other links to support them. I don’t need Glenn Beck or Skousen, I don’t need to defend them nor do they need me to. I find both of them interesting and well informed. I can manage multiple concepts at once, with discernment.
    I have a Bible. I’m an American. I feel blessed and charged by both. I think denying the blessing of our birthplace, as Americans, is pretty much the same as the cliche “I sent you a boat” parable of the man who claimed he was waiting on God to be rescued. I don’t expect to be lauded for it, any more than I’ll disavow it, that I feel proud and fortunate for this to be my place in the plan.

    I have learned some critical truths from you, Terry, and also from many of your commenters and the writers you’ve linked to – I am in awe and appreciation.

    Still, there is more to honesty than truth-telling, there is more to charity than a political notion of fairness, and there is more to being a Christian than pointing out who isn’t. I don’t see pursuing the lesser portion as any less misguided or political than being adamantly vested in the God and Country paradigm.

  43. Sorry I’m back so late in the discussion, Terry. What I mean to say is that in my opinion, there is NO political party or platform that is trying to defend the rights of all citizens to the best of its ability. These rights would include those of the disabled AND the unborn, and it isn’t really fair that we grant the term “pro-life” to only those who oppose abortion. I think it ought be broader than that, and that often we can see political folks who are not really going back to the basics of serving with humility after considering all sides of a given issue. The party shouldn’t dictate your vote, and certainly phrases like “women’s right to choose” or “state’s rights” ring sorta hollow when they’re used to oppress people.

  44. A created dependent class is entirely different than the Biblical concept of the poor…I cringe just a little when I hear of the mistreatment of the poor, etc, when many of us choose burdensome mortgages over the manageable, and payments over saving, and then turn to those who haven’t chosen those things to provide “charity”.

    Agreed 100%, and it’s this, along with social issues, that keep me a solid “conservative” for lack of a better term.

    I have learned some critical truths from you, Terry, and also from many of your commenters and the writers you’ve linked to – I am in awe and appreciation.

    Awww…. thanks so much! I appreciate what you add to these conversations as well.

    Still, there is more to honesty than truth-telling…
    Agreed, but the beginning of honesty most definitely IS truth-telling.

    there is more to charity than a political notion of fairness

    I couldn’t agree with you more that the poltiical notion of fairness that is being preached as Christian charity is misguided at best and something much more sisniter at its worst. You get no argument form me on that, sister!

    …and there is more to being a Christian than pointing out who isn’t.

    Again, I agree and would go a step further and say that being a Christian has nothing at all to do with pointing out who is or isn’t. Jesus said let the wheat and the tares grow together and I think it best we do just that.

    However, pointing out ideologies/doctrines that have creeped into Christ’s church masquerading as truth and sounding the alarm isn’t the same thing as pointing out who is a Christian and who isn’t. At least I don’t think so.

    Thanks for your comments, cottage child. You offer much food for thought.

  45. Mrs. C, I agree with you and I touched on that briefly when I pointed out how many believers decry abortion and then blindly support any military aggression instigated by a republican president. I didn’t mention the disabled, but certainly they are included in the group of people we should do our best to do right by.

    I agree that the party shouldn’t dictate our votes, but I say that as one who does extensive research before I cast my vote. For many people, the party label serves as some indication of what a candidate believes.

  46. On a side note, I think the medicare sign is too witty and pointed to be unintentional. I think the author intended people to think critically about Medicare and the roles they want their government to play.

  47. @ Professor Hale,

    I do hope you’re right about the sign. I would have thought so, too, had I not witnessed the so-called conservative talking heads on the cable news shows suddenly so concerned about the Medicare cuts that were being used to fund the Obama-Pelosi health care bill. The hypocrisy was stunning.

    I want to believe it was intentional.

  48. @Professor Hale I saw that sign being carried at many a tea party rally. I also saw tape of several town hall meetings where seniors were yelling, “keep your hands off my Medicare,” while at the same time saying government should stay out of healthcare. There is hypocrisy and it needs to be addressed, especially by those of us who claim Christ.

  49. Why was it hypocritical? (Please understand I don’t have cable so I don’t watch any of the cable news shows). I find it disconcering because they want to take funds from an already strapped program for seniors/disabled to pay for healthcare for younger, healthier people (who may have the money to pay for healthcare if they really wanted to, but wish to spend it otherwise).

  50. Okay, Nurse Bee. Let’s remove the word “hypocritical” and replace it with “inconsistent.” When people who are partaking in socialized medicine rant and rave about government imposing socialized medicine, I find that problematic.

    Keep in mind here that I am not advocating Medicare cuts, or suggesting that already strapped seniors should be extended any more than tney already are. In fact, I think this healthcare legislation is setting us on a road where older, sicker people will get less care and suffer often fatal results as doctors withhold medicines and treatments due to cost that wouldn’t have before this bill was passed. I have elderly parents. This does not make me happy.

    Still, the notion that Medicare is any thing other than socialized medicine is frankly, ignorant. And to say “Keep your government hands off my Medicare” is the height of ignorance because whose hands, if not government, are all on it to begin with? It’s a government program!!

    You, being a healthcare worker, are certainly more knowledgable than me on some of these issues, Nurse Bee. I concede that you have insights I can not appreciate. Ultimately, however, when Christians get on TV and rant or march on the nation’s capital spouting inconsistent positions, or want to reap the benefits of programs for themselves but not allow others to do the same, I cringe a little.

  51. I do have a vested interest in this as I work in a sector of healthcare heavily funded by Medicare…and destined for massive cuts by 2012 through the healthcare bill. I’m not sure how this will effect my agency and our patients.

    I was never a fan of the new healthcare reforms, but I’m also not exactly a fan of the tea party either.

  52. Pingback: The Tea Party and the Rise of American Gerontocracy

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