Sheila has a most excellent post up titled, Your Husband Trumps Your Children. I highly recommend it to wives, and most especially wives to be. Here’s a teaser:
…because our love for our kids is so primal and so different, it’s easy to push our husbands out of the way and build our lives around our kids.
Don’t. Your kids don’t need you to be with them every single night. They would benefit from you taking a break and going on a date with your spouse. They would benefit from having their own room, so that you and your hubby can relax together in your bedroom. Your children will thrive when you learn how to resolve conflict with your husband, how to form a real team, and how to put him first.
After all, the Bible says that the husband and wife are one flesh, not the kids and the mom. They may come from us, but we are united with our husband, not our kids.
What most interested me about the post, however, was what inspired it. As a guest blogger on another site, Sheila wrote about making your bedroom a sacred (and private) place for you and your husband. A commenter immediately took her to task for suggesting such a thing, making it clear that she believes a child’s needs should come before a husband’s.
You all know enough about me to know that I don’t agree with that at all. It’s utter nonsense. Of course, Sheila is right. The marriage relationship is the primary relationship in the family. It’s the relationship on which everything else in built. However, does that mean that the children are automatically banished from the master bedroom? I’d love that to be my reality, but it isn’t. And sometimes it’s a challenge.
Before Lil’ Princess and Sweetie Pie were born, our oldest three kids were already in middle school, firmly entrenched in their own bedrooms on the other side of the house. We were in “the zone”, if you will. Our bedroom was our cozy, private space and we loved it. ‘We also spent a lot of time in our room just talking and catching up on each others day. Our communication really deepened during that time because while the kids were doing homework, we were talking to each other. Anyone with little ones appreciates the challenge of enjoying any private time when they’re awake.
The arrival of our two youngest changed the dynamic considerably. Nursing infants need close proximity and it just made sense to put the crib up against our bed so the baby could feed through the night without my having to roll out of bed and walk across the house every two hours. But they’re three and four years old now, and we’re still attempting to transition to making our bedroom OUR bedroom again.
They have their own room, with comfortable beds and inviting decor. Every night they start out in their room, in their beds. About midway through the night without fail, one of them makes the journey to our bedroom and climbs up into the bed. For a while, we accepted it. Then, we started getting up and walking them back over to their room.
That lasted all of about a month. We have now reached a tentative arrangement where they still end up in our room at 2 AM, and everyone gets some much needed sleep. We harbor no illusions that this is an ideal situation, but it’s working for now. They make their trek late enough into the night that our intimacy is not hindered, and they get the security of close proximity to Mom and Dad.
Additionally, I’ve read that in cultures with a far more healthy attitude towards sex than Westerners, little ones aren’t kicked out until they need their own sense of privacy. Not having lived outside of the U.S. I don’t know how true that is, but I wonder how that affects marriages. Given that most of the world doesn’t enjoy the luxury of four-bedroom houses, I imagine there must be some truth to it.
Question: How do you deal with the issue of kids in the master bedroom? Is the room totally off-limits? How young is too young to kick them out? How old is too old to let them stay? Thoughts?
Welllll, the pioneers often had one room shacks and large families, so I’m guessing stuff got managed somehow.
You have a way with words, Happy Elf Mom. I imagine stuff did get managed somehow, lol. We have developed a way of living today that makes it difficult to imagine how couples with no “private space” managed to have so many kids!
Hey Terry. Didn’t we talk about this over at Alte’s too? As for the pioneers, I imagine that they had quickies out in the woods hahaha
I just made the same comment on Shelia’s blog about other cultures and how they are probably not as up tight as we are about sex and nudity. Our son is 4 and his room is right across the hall. He can look into our bedroom from it! He does get in with us if he is very sick or there is a bad storm. He always gets in there with me when dad leaves for work in the morning.
We don’t allow his toys to be in there and he is not permitted to play in our room.
We have agreed together that when we are blessed with our next child, that it will be with us while still young and helpless. We believe that is a natural human need for the young. But it has been deliberately discussed together and we are both aware of what’s expected. I think if you are going to let kids in the room, both partners should be very honest about their fears, their likes and expectations. Boundaries should be set and followed as close as possible.
And lastly, having the mindset that your spouse always comes first should be well ingrained. If not, I think the whole thing could easily fall apart and then you get the “it’s this or divorce” type of women.
Our daughter co-slept in our room until she was around 2. This was how my husband was raised and was the norm in his mother’s country. We had already planned on co-sleeping (and ecological breastfeeding which both go together) but having a preemie really sealed the deal. We needed to hear her breathing patterns and be sure she would rouse from sleep to nurse. She headed off to her own bed for most nights right around the time she self-weaned at twenty seven months. My husband was away for a fair portion of those two years so there really wasn’t much to hinder. haha.
Now she she might wind up in our room if she has a bad dream or if the artillery fire from post is very loud as it’s the worst in her bedroom. We have a little sleeping mat that we can pull out for heavy artillery times. It’s also a rule she sleeps with one of us when she’s ill with a respiratory infection. This illness rule was implemented after her Halloween weekend middle of the night ambulance ride. It’s frightening to realize had I not heard her struggling to breath she may have died. She’s been croup-y with every illness since so a bit of paranoia is prudent.
Terry, I just don’t imagine pioneers to have this “private space” or “dating your spouse” mentality. I think this is something new that has come with prosperity and I suppose is nice if it works for that couple, but not necessarily essential.
OK. *deep breath* Here’s my problem with this “your bedroom is a sanctuary for you and your spouse” thing. I have this weird feeling that it’s, at least in part, a result of the separation between marriage and children — the post-birth-control era where children are seen as optional. Now, please don’t hear me saying that couples who strive for this “sanctuary” thing are buying into the anti-child mindset of our generation, but pitting husband vs. children as though it’s a competition, or as though meeting the needs of one means ignoring the needs of the other, as though a family with children is made up of two units: wife and husband, and mom and kids, in conflict with each other, rather than a family all together… just all seems so illogical.
Now a child-centered home is obviously a dangerous thing, but isn’t a husband-centered home, or parent-centered home just as dangerous? Isn’t a Christ-centered home the real goal?
@Happy Elf Mom,
I get where you’re coming from. I’m not a big proponent of the “Date Night” mentality either. But I don’t want to dismiss things like date nights just because I don’t need date nights.
You’re right about the pioneers not needing stuff like that. Firstly, it was well understood that marriage was for life. That there are no “outs” except death. We have found in our own marriage that having that mentality forces us to do all we can to enjoy each other because there are no other options for marital enjoyment so long as we’re alive.
That’s one of the points Sheila was trying to make to her detractor. The idea that the children come first is a bad way of thinking. What happens when the children are of age? Empty-nest divorce.
Secondly, life was simpler for the pioneers. There was far less introspection as the focus, I imagine, was on the immediate necessities of the day. In this age of convenience, couples have to expend a bit more effort because if they don’t, the marriage falls apart. We have more time on our hands. Even though we’ve deluded ourselves into believing we don’t, we really do compared to the people of generations before. With this level of comfort things are more complex, marriage can be more complex, and with that complexity comes the need to carefully tend to the needs of your spouse.
Put simply, life was simpler for the pioneers. and they were probably more thankful.
@Pickle: When I referred to cultures with a more healthy regard for sexuality, believe it or not,I was referring to the folks who live in communities and cultures where modesty is the rule rather than the exception.
For instance, an orthodox Jewish community where the married women wear their hair covered and no one outside of their immediately family sees them with their hair down. I’m not advocating that this is a necessity for every person (I don’t cover my hair), but I can see where a standard that requires a man not to touch any woman not a blood relative besides his wife can only help increase intimacy in a marriage.
I’m far from prudish, but I think allowing ourselves to be bombarded with nudity and immodesty is bad when it comes to creating intimacy in marriage. I’m not saying that you support that line of thought, but usually when people say that Americans don’t have a healthy attitude about sex, they mean we are uptight about nudity. If by uptight you mean I don’t want my husband looking at another woman’s naked breasts, then color me uptight. I’ll wear that label. If by that you mean we act as if sex is dirty even in the context of marriage, I agree that we can sometimes have an unhealthy attitude towards something God intended to be good. The problem is more likely that we have an unhealthy attitude because we obsess over it too much while pretending we’re just being open-minded.
Yes, Laura Grace, a Christ-centered home is the real goal. I don’t think those who argue that parents need a separate space are attempting to pit husbands against children.
Rather, our culture has done a rather nice job of conveying the message that the mother-child bond trumps all else. The person who objected to Sheila’s post said it nicely (and I’ve heard several women say this through the years):
“while you can divorce your husband, most women wouldn't dream of divorcing their kids." Therefore, the kids should come first.
This is the prevailing mindset of our current society, in a nutshell, when it comes to marriage and family. “Your kids will always be your kids, but your spouse, well…”
This is the mindset Sheila is attempting to debunk, especially for those who are professed Christians.
Ideally, these relationships work seamlessly, with everyone in their God-given places, and the family working together as a team. Sadly, it doesn’t work that way because far too many of us have trained our children to believe they hold a place of authority in the home that they do not.
Sorry, I should clarify better, sex and nudity at home. I certainly wouldn’t want that to be an open subject outside of my house. Example, Our son is 4. I don’t shoo him away if I am changing or taking a shower. He often pokes his head in to talk and ask what is going on. I know a few people who think that is totally wrong and keep their kids away from seeing anything at home. It’s the same if my husband is in the shower.
I have a few German friends who have just no concept of the family privacy thing. They all share the bathroom together, walk around the house in under ware and don’t giggle behind there hands if they know someone is “doing it”. It’s just been taught to them as a part of family life. It’s a normal relationship that is not considered vulgar or sexual in anyway.
I think that makes a big difference when it comes to parenting, especially when you have little ones in the same room. It’s easy to stay discreet without making what you are doing appear shameful.
I think that makes a big difference when it comes to parenting, especially when you have little ones in the same room. It’s easy to stay discreet without making what you are doing appear shameful.
You make an excellent point here. I doubt that most nursing mothers abstained during the entire first 6 months of their babies’ lives simply because the crib was in the room.
And as has been pointed out here by another commenter, there was a time when couples had to make due with far less privacy than we enjoy in our homes.
“While you can divorce your husband, you can’t divorce your kids – so your kids should come first.”
Well, that just helps make that divorce of your husband all that much more likely.
@ Gorb
Exactly. It seems that divorce culture has carried over to Christian women as well.
It seems that divorce culture has carried over to Christian women as well.
Well yes, Svar and Gorbacev. The divorce culture is alive and well in the church. I believe the divorce rate among believers is a dismal 40%. Why do you think women like Sheila and I feel compelled to write such posts? Our audience is primarily Christian women.
I often feel like I’m preaching to the choir. But Sheila has a much bigger audience and she gets far more responses like the one above than I do.
Many women don’t want a husband; they want a provider for the children they want to have. A lot of women in churches – cousins of mine among them – are primarily interested in creating a family, but their visions of family mostly involve children; husbands are functions.
And if you can dispense with the function – then so be it.
it’s possible for women to rationalize any decision when it comes to ditching their men.
Lifetime marriage vows are almost always seen as “Obligations for men to look after women”, without the implied “obligations for women to look after their man.”
While I admit that I’ve seen more women ditch their husbands than vice versa, I have seen a couple of men ditch good wives as well, Gorbacev. The default position ( the Biblical position) on this blog is that we are all fallen sinners. Just wanted to put that out there.
That said, I have known more than a few women in my family and immediate circle through the years who always spoke of their desire to marry in terms of wanting to be a mother. You have a point there. I think that’s why so many wives find it easy to push their husbands to the back burner when the babies come. I don’t think it’s intentional. I think it’s a natural outcome of entering marriage for the wrong reasons and looking at it from the wrong perspective.
And many men take it, suffering silently until the marriage falls apart. That’s a huge mistake. I’m a firm believe that you need to make it clear to your spouse what you need, especially if the need is one you should reasonably expect your spouse to meet.
Laura Grace raises an excellent and thought-provoking point.
I also believe another question might need to be asked alongside the one being raised in this post: what place do others have in the marriage? Terry, Sheila, and a variety of other bloggers seek to bring dignity and value to marriage, which is a noble goal, but I do believe the road to (marital) hell can often be paved with good intentions.
Consider for a moment the comment Sheila made in her post about her husband’s experience in never having met a man who was on board with co-seeping. She’s using her husband’s sex and supposed position of authority (doctor) to argue anecdotal evidence and opinion as fact. With her claim the logical outcome almost seems to be saying that husbands who are on board with co-sleeping are lying and their wives have bullied them into the position. Her statement could raise doubts about a husband’s honesty to his wife and with it doubts about being on the same page in the marriage. She has very well inserted herself, and her husband for that matter, into the marriages of others through her well-meaning advice. This is not a place anybody belongs and is potentially far more harmful to a marriage than a bedroom with a bit of clutter on the floor.
I don’t intend to pick on Sheila or be unkind–far from it–but simply to use her words as one easy example of a problem that seems to crop up frequently in the blogsphere and even in religious marriage books. Rather than deal with the bigger idea of placing importance on keeping marriages healthy and thriving the issue gets bogged down with details that may sow the seeds of discord in a marriage or put another person (blogger, author, whatever) between a husband and wife and in a place where they do not belong. Asking ourselves who belongs in a marriage and how we can protect the private decisions made together by a husband and wife is a far more profound and essential question than if a couple welcomes children into the master bedroom or if the room is well-stocked with candles.
Marriages can be healthy and successful through many different trials and lifestyle choices. A marriage can even grow richer during long times of physical absence and highly stressful situations. They cannot, however, be strong and thriving if a couple doesn’t stand together and know that they are doing the right thing for their family even when others would like to claim contrary.
I see your point, Daisy because MY husband was actually far more comfortable with the kids sleeping with us than I was. I simply don’t sleep as well with their little feet flailing all over the place. There were seasons when their presence was a hindrance but not for very long.
My husband is the king of improvisation and that carries over into every area. Guest room, shower, the walk-in closet if need be are all valid places for us to” connect”.
So yes, it is highly possible for there to be husbands who don’t mind co-sleeping, because mine didn’t. It only became an issue for him when he could see that I was tired from not getting enough sleep. His concern for my health moved him to help me remove them from our bed.
You’re right that each family needs to have the freedom to work out these logistical details for themselves. I do try to say that here, avoiding hard and fast rules for all couples outside of what I think the Bible makes clear. Such as the husband as the leader of the family, and the family NOT being child-centered.
I think that last point is what Sheila is trying to convey, even if she didn’t do a perfect job of it. More often than not, husbands get pushed aside and the needs (wants) of the children take center stage. I really believe this is what she was trying to get across.
Our room isn’t decked out with candles and whatnot. We rarely do date nights. The Hollywood narrative of what’s romantic rarely plays out in this house. The biggest lesson we’ve learned in our marriage is to be upfront about what we need, and what rankles us. The rest falls into place rather smoothly after that.
“Many women don’t want a husband; they want a provider for the children they want to have. A lot of women in churches – cousins of mine among them – are primarily interested in creating a family, but their visions of family mostly involve children; husbands are functions.”
Exactly, Gorbachev, which is why the writings of Terry and Sheila are indeed important, trying to combat this unfortunate tendency.
Alas, even in my very traditional church, the late teenage daughter of an arch-traditionalist family there has all her potential baby names picked out, has said she hopes her children have certain physical attributes (as if they’d be dolls for her to play with), and really, has built a world of dreams around her presumed future married-with-children life; the thought that maybe a guy she might meet and fall in love with (if she’s even capable of that) might have other ideas has quite clearly never occurred to her. She has her future lined up; now all she needs is some guy, any guy, to play his part; hence my concerns about her ability to actually fall in love (i.e. my concern for any guy unfortunate enough to fall for her). Evidently, her parents never taught her not to cross a bridge till she reaches it…
@ Terry
Is Gorb right when he says that most women see their husbands as just functions? I read the manosphere a lot and I’ve heard a lot of guys say that. I’m not sure what to make of it.
@Svar:
Is Gorb right when he says that most women see their husbands as just functions?
I think most wives sincerely love their husbands when they marry them. I think unrealistic expectations (yes, often on the part of wives) suck the life out of many marriages. Couple it with making the whole deal child-centered, add the dynamic of men unable, unwilling, or not allowed to lead, and you get the dismal divorce rate we have now in and out of the church.
A lot of the manosphere men are out of balance and they speak about women the same way the most strident, man-hating feminist speaks about men.
Sure there are women who see their husbands as a means to an end. Of course there are. There are men who marry for the wrong reasons as well. I’d say MOST people start out marrying “under the influence.” We have to learn to be selfless in marriage. If it wasn’t modeled for us by our parents, grandparents, or some other role models, we revert to our default position: selfishness. Sadly, the church doesn’t do enough teaching on what marriage is really all about.
It isn’t all hearts and flowers. It’s work. But the rewards are worth it.
I do try to do that here, avoiding hard and fast rules for all couples outside of what I think the Bible makes clear.
Oh so important and appreciated. I think we all have to remember that not everybody who reads our words has developed the necessary boundaries in their marriage against outside influence and thus may be harmed by what is said even with the best of intentions.
I can recall several emails from my old blogging days coming from women extremely concerned and upset that their military husbands might cheat on them thanks to advice they had read on other blogs. I also received emails asking me if I was scared my husband would be unfaithful and from those inquiring about his p*rn usage, that sort of thing because they, too, have been influenced by something they had read. Both instances display well what happens when people do not cultivate proper boundaries to honor and protect their marriages and those of others.
That experience made it all too clear to me that you cannot take for granted that every reader is able to cast aside the shoe if it doesn’t fit. Much of the “do it daily!” marriage advice I scroll past as it’s irrelevant to portions of my life, and being a good wife demands I do just the opposite.
Marriage advice most relevant to my life comes from military wife blogs and that’s where I wander to for encouragement and inspiration and care package theme ideas. Not everybody possesses the discernment to scroll on by like that though and we must hammer home the “build walls around your marriage” advice far more broadly to be most effective IMHO. 
I think the issue crops up more than we might realize.
So Terry, it’s nothing a little game can’t fix?
@ Svar:
What the manosphere calls game, I tend to think is a simple of matter of confident, unapologetic masculinity and it may look different on every man depending on his God-given personality. It has little to do with “games.”
Once any person gets comfortable in his own skin without apologizing for it, they become more attractive, especially to the person who already loved him enough to pledge her life to him.
@Daisy: You hit on something important. Women are prone to jumping on bandwagons, which often cause confusion. We need to learn to evaluate what each of our husbands and families need individually apart from the advice we read in books, blogs, etc. Even if the advice is good advice in general, it may not work in practice for us individually. Your experience as a military wife is a prime example.
Well Terry, I agree with you too, but you have to understand the neutering effect that modern culture(and even the modern church) has on men. I see game as relearning what I’ve already known but was told to suppress.
My family has done the “family bed” until each child is about 18 months to two years old–after that, we’re thinking they’ll start noticing that Mom and Dad are doing something besides sleeping (and Mom nursing the little one of course). Given that our kids are 12, 11, 9, 6, 4, and coming in October, you can guess whether this puts a serious crimp in our style!
Along the lines of the question of whether one ought to be child-centered or whatever, it seems to me that the most precious thing one can do for one’s kids is to love one’s spouse well–after all, the strongest predictor of adult success is whether Mom and Dad are married, no?
To be honest, I have to laugh when someone describes our society as “child-centered” –we have 2/3 of kids in daycare, half of kids aren’t growing up with both parents, 20% never really learn to read, and we’re exposing them to God knows what perversion on TV/movies/in school, and we have the gall to call ourselves child-centered? Yes, we put the miles on our minivans and SUVs going to sports, band, hobbies, and fancy vacations, but that doesn’t exactly mean we’re doing right by our children.
Or our spouses….
Excellent points, Bike Bubba. And I’m not even offended that you included me in that list of things people do that harm kids, having kids in a public high school and all that,
.
Sorry, I didn’t read every comment entirely (you’re that kind of popular site now TBG) so apologies if I’m repeating….I believe wholeheartedly in the concept of separateness of parental space, not because I think sex or nudity in and of themselves are wrong, to the contrary, considering the Glory of Creation, and God’s provision for nothing but our sheer pleasure, but because both are sacred and private. Sex, in particular, isn’t “normal”, rather it’s exceptional and extraordinary in it’s proper context. The marriage bed is the representative of that understanding, in our home. I hope if my children ever get the sense we’re “sharing” , that they will giggle and wonder, because it’s special!!! I pray differently in private than I do in public, I experience other intimate details of my life differently – it is out of reverence that the space be private.
My friends all said I was silly to not have our children sleep in our room, but I felt differently about feeding our children in our bed, as much a practical matter as anything – I wouldn’t eat a sandwich in our bed, and the thought of an infant “blessing” our private space with his lunch just wasn’t appealing. Gratefully, each family can make that decision according to their own need.
We live in a culture obsessed simultaneously with privacy and exposure – I don’t think a pioneer comparison is a representative one. You pointed out that their lives were simpler – yes, and also much harder, fraught with death and adversity and hardship that we can only be grateful we do not know. I pray that now we are blessed with some convenience, we’ll recognize how much easier it is to have children in our lives, and have many more of them, now that they’re not -literally – under our feet.
I live in a country where many married couples start their lives together and as parents in a room in their in-laws’ flat. Those who are lucky live on 38 sq m (around 400 sq ft). And later on, when the children are bigger, it’s the norm for the parents to sleep in the living room on a sofa bed. So while we’re not pioneers, my take on the whole problem is somewhat different
I am one of the lucky ones living separately from either of our parents, in two rooms, one of which is my husband’s study, as he works from home. My baby is 3 months old and obviously sleeps in the same room as we do. Our bed doubles up as a sofa and my nursing chair
This suits us fine while she wakes up at night to eat. Hopefully, when she starts sleeping longer stretches we’ll have a larger place to live and our daughter will be in her own room.
My dream is to have a separate master bedroom while my husband doesn’t really see this as an issue at all. But then, he was raised with 4 people living in a two-room flat, while I spent several years in England, with 4 people in 4 rooms…
The divorce rate in Poland is 33%. Our birth rate is currently abyssymally low, but in our parents’ and grandparents’ day, when the housing situation was even worse, there were far more children being born.
One other thing Bike Bubba: I think a definition of “child-centered” may be in order. When most people say child-centered, we don’t mean that things are done in the best interest of the child. Rather, that the child calls the shots, and things are done according to whatever makes him feel good and happy.
This is most often NOT in the best interest of the child. Ironically, it is exactly as you say. The more our culture cries out, “for the children!” the more we embrace things that are decidedly NOT in the best interest of the children.
@ Cottage Child: I am not against married couples having a private space. I think it’s great if you can do it. Like I told Happy Elf Mom, couples need to make every effort cultivate time alone precisely because life is so much more complex and relationships and families are being pulled in so many different directions. This issue is far from cut and dried in my mind.
But Laura Grace is right that we must be very careful that we don’t inadvertently find ourselves promoting the cultural trend to divorce marital intimacy from procreation. Oh, and I know that the pioneers had a much, much harder life. I wasn’t attempting to idealize the good old days that never were, lol. I try not to do that.
@Krystyna: Thanks for weighing in because I appreciate someone from a different country responding to my inquiry about how other cultures handle this question. In many countries, a marital sanctuary is not even an option. Interestingly enough the birth rates are highest in countries where couples are least likely to have ” a room of their own”. Not interested in debating whether this is a good or bad thing. Just putting that out there.
But Laura Grace is right that we must be very careful that we don’t inadvertently find ourselves promoting the cultural trend to divorce marital intimacy from procreation.
I guess I don’t understand it to promote that – in fact, my point goes to protecting the primary family relationship, by which procreation takes place, and its stability, which is in the best interest of the children and the family as a whole. I don’t view keeping one room in a home off limits to children (or other folks, period) as a “rule” everyone should follow, certainly, but I could just as easily see the use of the family bed and attachment parenting (which is IME often as much about the parents public image as it is the child) as a wedge between parents.
Societal differences are interesting, but I’m less inclined to view them as directly informative, precisely because they’re often cultural trends just like any other. The cultural trend toward natural child birth in the late sixties and early seventies was brought about by a shortage of anesthesiologists in Europe, and American women in their rush to embrace the “better” culture, began having natural childbirth here. It was a fashionable trend, not an effort in the best interest of babies. ***(I’m not arguing that ncb isn’t better, it’s just not how it came to be in vogue in the US).*** In our culture (and you study/know this better than I, not lecturing) there is such a tendency toward outward “good” behavior, with somewhat passive-aggressive underlying motives, it’s natural to be skeptical of the trends adopted because of influences outside our culture, different not necessarily being better. I don’t think it’s better or worse for someone elses family to do as they know best, it’s not a value judgment, but by the same standard I don’t see a family bed as holy or more loving or more nurturing than not having one.
Fortunately for them, no one who disagrees has to live with me
, and I can only pray that the flow and happiness of each family as they walk with God pleases Him.
And Bike Bubba, thank you for your inadvertent word to a Mom who is currently negotiating the activities merry-go-round, or rather, refusing to get on it. I wonder if the pressure for the home educated to join/do/play something is in my mind, or if it’s really more of Ye Olde Proper Socialization mechanism in play.
One other thing Bike Bubba: I think a definition of “child-centered” may be in order. When most people say child-centered, we don’t mean that things are done in the best interest of the child.
I don’t think “child centered” is necessarily the appropriate phrase for the issue that you’re likely trying to get at. I’m assuming the lack of family cohesion, quality time shared together, poor discipline habits, and overindulgence in parenting is what you’re referring to as “child centered”. If this is so “consumption centered” may be a better way to frame the problem. People often take the route of least resistance in parenting and parent with guilt not the future in mind because of the pressures of money making and the lack of importance the culture places on activities that do not produce something of economic value for the GDP. From the two income trap and the idea that more is best flows many societal problems.
The book “Your Money or Your Life” makes a compelling argument about the ill effects “making a dying” has on all aspects of our life and society and you’ll find many biblical ideas popping into your mind as you read the arguments and advice contained in this book. More than a financial book it’s a life philosophy book and is a mighty interesting read.
Declaring what is “child centered” in healthy families can be very subjective just as declaring what is supposedly “neglectful” can be so as well. Different family sizes, resources, and values can make for a multitude of situations and I do believe it’s extremely unfair for anybody to be judged based on a yardstick others have made for their families. This is a wee bit off topic but pops into my head after a recent conversation I was involved in with a mother of two who was harshly condemning large families as not being attentive enough to their children as their children often aren’t part of the lessons that her children are. It bothered me deeply as being the mother of an only child I know all too well the condemnation and judgment that comes with the territory of being out of the norm.
@Cottage Child:
I’m not disagreeing with the idea that when at all possible, couples need to carve out their own space and put boundaries around their relationship, making it clear that cultivating that relationship is a top priority. That was the spirit in which this post was written and I haven’t changed my mind about that one iota. I’m still working on getting those kids to stop coming to my room every night!
I was simply pointing out that this isn’t an absolute necessity because for some couples it really is an impossibility. That impossibility needn’t mean their marriages are less loving, stable, and solid.
@Daisy: Once again, I agree with your overall point concerning child-centeredness. Maybe “consumption-centeredness” is more appropriate. Given our recent dialogue concerning the possibility that most legal adults are fully rational adults, I think you’d agree with me that in most cases, parenting from a sense of guilt, giving a kid everything her or she thinks they want, and teaching them that the only thing that matters are their interests and schedules is generally a bad idea. That is actually what I meant by child-centered.
I don’t necessarily believe that co-sleeping is creating a child-centered family. We have always made it crystal clear that our relationship is a top priority and our kids know it.
Veering back to the post, I think the first commenter on Sheila’s guest post was crystal clear that the children always should come first. That, IMO, is the definition of a child-centered family, whether the couple are hyper-consumerists or not.
All that said, you’re correct about being ever so careful about imposing our standards onto others. It’s not only unkind, but it’s unwise.
I agree with Sheila’s assertion that a wife needs to remember to whom she is married and that she should not place children in the position of shield (emotional or physical) in the middle of the relationship she is supposed to maintain with her husband. Women especially can do this even unconsciously. I will say that sometimes it can be due to an attempt to overcompensate for a busy or less-then interested father figure rather than a deliberate placing of kids above spouse.
A commenter immediately took her to task for suggesting such a thing, making it clear that she believes a child’s needs should come before a husband’s.
I’d disagree with the commenter in that children do need to learn that they are not the center of the universe. However, when a couple begins to have children (I’m sure you know this), the dynamic between husband and wife does change…it must. Both need to acknowledge that their relationship must be focused on not just one another, but the child they together have brought into the world. And, there are some children that do need more attention than others…so whatever was working just great for the first three might be a total bust with a fourth.
The point you made about other societies is significant. Here, in the US, we tend to be obsessed with our personal space, personal rights, personal time, personal well-being. Yet, if we were forced to live a more subsistence focused existence, how much “me” or “him and me” related stuff might just evaporate? The relationship between husband and wife would certainly still need to be maintained, but insistence on private rooms etc would not be near the top of the to-do list.
If we, as parents, refuse to be flexible and realistic about the commitment we must make to the children the Lord gives us, it should not be surprising when resentment of those children pops up in one or the other spouse.
Your question:
Question: How do you deal with the issue of kids in the master bedroom? Is the room totally off-limits? How young is too young to kick them out? How old is too old to let them stay? Thoughts?
But the statement made above, with regard to giving kids their own room etc. This appears to make an assumption that all families can afford to spread out like this and/or it is the wife’s disinterest in her husband’s needs that lands kids in the master bedroom. Believe it or not, even in America, sometimes the baby’s bed must remain in the master bedroom for a couple years. I know of one family who lived in a travel trailer for two or three years (5 kids at the time, I believe. Zero privacy) while they built their house. I’ve been told that one of the favorite together times of the wife was to take a drive in the rain with her husband. They have also allowed young children to sleep in their room at times due to space problems. These people have an amazingly strong marriage today. Why suggest that the wife didn’t care about her husband’s needs with a statement that hints that it is necessary to create a “private, sacred room” in order for her marriage to be genuinely healthy?
At any rate, I appreciate the efforts of those who wish to help strengthen marriage by admonishing wives to respect, love and support our husbands. We ALL need such reminders. I see nothing wrong with suggesting that a wife go to her husband and ask him about whether he’s feeling slighted or whether he wants kids in the master bedroom. It is good to encourage us to remember that little things like body language and personal hygiene can make a huge difference.
But, I do feel that when any woman (even a well-meaning, highly published personality) makes specific statements such as “wear this”, or “do this with your bedroom in order to ensure that your husband knows you care about his needs”, it can have the effect of crossing the line into the realm of meddling in another woman’s marriage. In other words, while ejecting the man’s children from his bedroom, she has now inserted herself into the scenario. And, it can set up problems that did not previously exist as a concerned wife begins making changes according to the instruction of a woman who doesn’t even know her rather than remain in submission to her own husband’s direction and preferences.
“And I’m not even offended that you included me in that list of things people do that harm kids, having kids in a public high school and all that, ”
:^) You’re at least one who clues in that the 1968 version of Romeo and Juliet just might not be the thing to show to hormonally addled high school freshmen, though. Seriously, well said, and it’s my prayer that more parents will start standing up and saying “hey–exactly why is it appropriate to play such and such a song at the school dance while wearing this and that and doing oh-my on the dance floor?” Or “Bananas and cucumbers are not for that purpose!”
(especially with the new study–see Vox–that has found that high school appears to be linked to suicide and violent crime…paging William Golding)
As for a phrase to characterize “give the kids what they think they want at the time instead of what they need,” I kinda like “mammon-centered,” but I’m guessing a lot of people wouldn’t get it.
Hi, all! I thought maybe I should chime in on this since I started it.
The original article that everyone was reacting to really wasn’t meant to be about co-sleeping. In fact, that was only one point. But that’s the one that the initial negative commenter reacted to, and so that’s what we ended up talking about.
I’m obviously biased about this because I’m married to a pediatrician who has seen kids come to harm over this. Both the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Pediatric Association have warnings about co-sleeping, and it is a huge issue in my husband’s practice. So, yes, I’m biased. And the other issue that my husband sees consistently is the 3, 4, or 5 year old who still sleeps in mom and dad’s bed, where the parents want the child to go to his/her own room but the child won’t go. And it’s a huge issue. In these cases, it’s almost 95% of the time much more an issue for dad than for mom. (And by the way, studies have shown in the Pediatric journals that co-sleeping is by-and-large female driven, and that most men DO have reservations; I know I framed it as an anecdote when I said this in my post, but I could also point you to articles if I went downstairs and perused the journals, because I have read them fairly recently.)
I’m also biased because I am such a light sleeper that I could NEVER sleep with the babies in the bed. My oldest daughter we were able to sleep in her crib from the beginning; my youngest one had more problems sleeping and I did bring her into bed quite a few nights when she was only a few months old, and I didn’t sleep a wink all night. I just can’t sleep with a baby on top of me, or beside me, or anything. So we always had them sleep in another room because otherwise I wouldn’t sleep at all. So I’m approaching this issue being biased on two fronts, and I fully admit that.
I should also say that when I did research on it for my upcoming book, The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex, I was absolutely stunned at the co-sleeping websites that completely dismissed the husband’s point of view. Some huge sites had articles about sex while co-sleeping that basically said, “if he complains about the kids being there, that’s his problem. He just needs to get used to having silent, almost motionless sex.” I’m really not sure how many men would be thrilled about that. And that was one of the better comments. Others said that “he should stop whining,” or “he should realize he’s not the center of the universe anymore.”
Now, not all websites were like this, obviously. But I read through just a few in twenty minutes of the top ones that showed up on Google, and that’s what I got.
And it disturbed me. So let me reiterate my position, because I don’t think it’s as negative as other people are making it sound:
Your husband comes first. You are one flesh with him, not with the kids. Thus, the best thing you can do for your husband and for your children is to value your relationship with him, and that includes sex. When the kids come, he must still be your primary relationship. If that is your priority, and if you are living that out, I don’t think the sleeping arrangements matter all that much. But if you do choose to co-sleep, I really challenge you to answer these questions: is your husband as on board with this as you are, or is it primarily your idea? Are you making love as often as you would if you weren’t co-sleeping? Is your sex life as fun as it would be if the kids weren’t in the bed? If you can answer yes to all of those things, then there’s no problem. If you can’t answer yes, then you and your husband need to sit down and talk about it. And I think that’s really about it!
Oh, and one more thing: the issue of privacy/modesty I don’t see as really connected with co-sleeping. My kids were in the shower with me until they were 5 (and sometimes later). They walked in on my husband getting changed until they were about 4 or 5, too. And we didn’t co-sleep; we just lived in a tiny apartment and everybody was around everybody!
“if he complains about the kids being there, that’s his problem. He just needs to get used to having silent, almost motionless sex.”
That’s messed up
Sheila, in my criticism of your position (and it seems in “A Reader’s” comment above) the concern if not your opining on co-sleeping that you (and other bloggers) insert yourselves into the marriages of other couples all while discussing the sacredness of marriage between husband wife.
The parenting opinions of other people aren’t going to change what we do in our family nor is it going to upset me. Our choices were not only beneficial for our family but we’re done with that season of our life due to chronic illness and infertility so it’s not a decision I feel much passion about anymore. Your husband’s position as a medical professional doesn’t give any more credence or authority in my mind as my husband is also a medical professional. IOW I have no axe to grind with your opinion on co-sleeping itself as it’s irrelevant to my life.
However, there are many who lack the discernment and confidence necessary for the opinions of others not to sow seeds of discord between husband and wife. Through your blog and writing you have set yourself up as an authority and in this specific example you have come very close to insinuating that husbands who say yes to co-sleeping are lying to their wives and that you and your husband know more about these men than do their own wives. Your words also seem to be making the claim that you care more about the needs of these men than do their own wives. I find this highly concerning not because the issue is co-sleeping but because this insinuation has the potential to be extremely harmful to some marriages and is not an appropriate line to be crossing if you want to help others cultivate strong healthy marriages. Anecdotes and statistics from a blogger are not what child-rearing decisions should be made on but discussions between husband and wife.
Respecting the boundaries of marriage and encouraging other women to do the same is one of the most important ways we call all stand up to defend our marriage and that of our friends. As individuals we can live this out by discouraging friends from sharing gripes about their spouses and encouraging them to talk to their spouses about the issues, not to anybody else. As bloggers this can be encouraged by not taking an unseemly and invasive interest in the private discussions, secrets, and acts shared between husband and wife but extolling the benefits of boundaries and building hedges of protection around our marriages. This particular issue could have been addressed in a far more delicate and appropriate way that would be far more honoring of the marital bond than it was.
Thanks for weighing in Sheila! And for the record, I understood that your original post was not about co-sleeping. That’s why I recommended it to brides-to-be as well as brides. Your overall point, that the marital relationship is the foundation of the family, is a point that far too many mothers need to be reminded of.
That said, I was intrigued by the co-sleeping thread that emerged. As I said in my post, I can relate to what you said here:
the 3, 4, or 5 year old who still sleeps in mom and dad’s bed, where the parents want the child to go to his/her own room but the child won’t go.
Our kids have their own rooms, and they even spend most of the night in there (most of the night being relative since I get up at 5 AM). But their trek to our room every night between 1 and 2 disrupts our sleep even though we’ve worked out a scenario where they don’t actually end up in our bed. Air beds are a marvelous invention!
I’ve said repeatedly here that I do miss our room being OUR room. I agree that in general, when a couple can do this, they probably should, especially for children past the age of two. When possible.
I also know from experience that it isn’t always the wife that accommodates the childrens’ desires in this area. My husband was far more okay with them in our room and bed than I was, at least after the nursing stage was over. He is not a pushover and he would not simply “grin and bear it” if I was the one letting the kids in the room. That’s just not how he is. If he doesn’t like something, he says so clearly, leaving no room for ambiguity.
I do think it’s worth noting that in families with many children and limited space, this is something that a couple shouldn’t have a sense of guilt over. A few of my readers (not to mention me) have more than 3 or 4 children. I know at least two of the commenters on this post are expecting their 6th. Even with a big house, space can get to be an issue.
I also know from experience that sex can still be good and fairly regular even when the arrival of babies makes what was once a private room into a semi-private room. It takes a little creativity and thinking outside of the box, but that is often more fun.
We’re still trying to get our room back, though!
Daisy,
I understand that you’re upset about something, but I’m sorry, I’m really, really lost as to what the issue is! I’ve reread your comment a few times and I still don’t get it.
Are you saying that bloggers SHOULDN’T make suggestions as to how people should act in marriage? Because I can’t really see what you’re arguing other than that, and I guess I strongly disagree with that.
I think Terry and I tend to argue from the same standpoint when we write (though maybe on this one we’re not in 100% agreement on the specifics, we tend to be in pretty much 100% agreement on the principle). And the principle would be this (Terry, you can tell me if you think I’ve gotten it wrong):
In general, in our culture and in the Christian church, there has been too much emphasis for women on finding “fulfillment” and not enough honest to goodness teaching on how to build a strong marriage and negotiate your relationship with your husband, who should come first. In general, though certainly not in all cases, many problems in marriage can be traced back to simple selfishness and a misunderstanding of the importance and sacredness of marriage, especially on behalf of the woman. Women seem to feel that men need to live up to some feminist ideal of a husband, and if he doesn’t, we women have the right to retreat, or to not be proper wives. Our behaviour is dependent on theirs. And that is not godly, and thus it is not right.
That is why the vast majority of my posts have to do with what women can do to help their marriages, not what men can do. I’m writing to women, and I firmly believe that even if the man is acting ungodly or is being horrible (and many men are), there is little a woman can do about that. You can’t change your husband. What you can change is yourself.
Thus, I tend to write marriage advice for women. As for setting myself up as an expert, I suppose you could call it that, in that I speak at marriage conferences about a half dozen times a year with my husband, I’ve written three marriage books, and I speak to women in general dozens of times over the course of a year. So it’s not that I’m calling myself an expert; it’s just that that is my professional background, and that is what I’ve been hired to do.
So to get back to your point, I’m not sure what you’re objecting to. It sounds from your comment like you’re objecting to me advising women to act a certain way in their marriages, but isn’t that what my blog is about? What should I do instead? I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I just really don’t see it.
And part of writing a blog is that it is my opinion, and if you read the comments, you’ll see that I do allow other opinions on the blog as well (and I try to respond to them).
If you could clarify what it is that you’re objecting to, I’d appreciate it!
Sheila, my concern lies in the lack of boundaries that existed in this post and a few others. The claim was made that husbands often privately advise your husband that they do not wish to co-sleep but fail to share this confidence with their wives. Such words could lead a wife to believe her husband is lying to her about being on board with co-sleeping because Doctor X and these statistics and a blogger’s research has said so. In a marriage with poor boundaries against outside influence you have effectively inserted yourself between husband and wife and may bring about doubts about a husband’s honesty to his wife. They may have a discussion and he states this is not the case but now there’s going to be a little bit of Sheila and her opinion calling into doubt what this man is saying to his wife.
I’m not saying that bloggers need to avoid opining about what makes a healthy marriage but am advocating that great caution be used in doing so. There is a line between helping and invasive that needs to be found and consistently honored and those who wish to offer marriage advice to others need to be sure to always be honoring that line. Words must be chosen carefully and boundaries respected to prevent coming between husband and wife. Insinuating that a husband may not be telling the full truth to his wife is a place where one must tread carefully.
As a practical example of this issue, you could have encouraged wives to discuss with their husbands if they are finding their current bedroom situation fulfilling without adding the confidences that have privately been shared with your husband by his patient’s parents. This would have made your entire post come across in a dramatically different and far more positive way.
There is an article titled “Protecting Marriage From Outside Intruders” that explains the point I am seeking to make far more eloquently than I can: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kreitz/Christian/Boundaries/all.html#SECTION05010000000000000000
It’s an important issue not only to protect your own marriage but that of others as well, especially when you are in a position when you might become privy to confidences shared by others and must respectfully and appropriately help them help themselves with issues that arise in their marriage or be seen as an expert or authority.
Coming late to this, but wanted to chime in. I do get and agree with the spirit of the post. Right now I’m kind of in the thick of things with a baby and a toddler. Our toddler never co-slept, but I’ve found some nights the only way for me to get any sleep is to bring the baby into bed with us. Our bedroom is not off limits either, as I bathe both kids in our bathroom and our toddler often uses our toilet.
My husband and I usually have time together downstairs after the kids go to bed. And that is important thing…that we take time in our day for each other.
You know Nurse Bee, our little ones bathe in the master bath, too! The youngest just recently began using the main toilet. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to make my room “off limits” to the children. I know some couples do that, but it’s not much of a priority. I think accomplishing a private bedroom during the hours we sleep at night (among other things) is enough for me and my husband to be satisfied.
My ex-wife put the children first. She is a mass attending Catholic, but that mattered little. Bedroom was like Grand Central Station. There is no excuse for not finding some privacy sometimes, even if you have to go use a different room. Kids in the bed are often used as a similar excuse to “Not tonight, I have a headache.” This can go on for years. Now my children are growing up without a father in their lives. This is not my choice. Nuf said. The first shall be last. This situation is NOT unique.
Daisy, I hear what you’re saying now. Thanks for clearing that up. You’re right, I certainly did not want women to be afraid that their husbands were saying one thing and doing or feeling another.
But at the same time, I still think this is a serious problem, and I’m not sure that not mentioning it is the answer. I agree that I should have given it some context, but here is the plain and simple truth. Men tell my husband that they have felt pressured into letting the kids in the bed, and they say that no matter what they say, their wives won’t get the kids out. And they ask my husband for advice.
Now, my husband usually talks to the couple together, but that’s not the point. The point that I’m making, and that is often made in the literature, is that co-sleeping tends to be a woman’s decision, and men will often “acquiesce” because their disagreements aren’t taken seriously.
I think in most of these cases the woman KNOWS that the husband isn’t totally in favour, but she thinks he’s wrong. She doesn’t just think he has a different opinion; she thinks he is actually morally wrong.
So this is a very real issue, and I’m not sure that not talking about it is the answer. Do you see what I mean? I think many women are discounting their husbands’ opinions, even when those opinions have been stated, because they think they’re right and their husbands are wrong. And I think that’s dangerous, which is the point I was trying to make in the blog post.
I could write a follow up and elaborate on this more, but I’m not inclined to because I don’t really want to open it up again. But the main point, to me, is that women are discounting men’s opinions, and I don’t think that’s right. I’m not sure how women are going to be made aware of this tendency unless we talk about it in wives’ blogs. SoI guess that’s what I’m trying to get at!
I should also say that my room is NOT off limits to the kids, and never has been! My kids used to snuggle in our bed to read bedtime stories, because it was the only place big enough to fit us all. They also piled in in the morning and snuggled when they first woke up.
I absolutely have no problem with any of that. My issue is that when the husband and wife are together at the end of the day (or when kids nap, or whenever), they should have a sanctuary. The bed should be there, without clutter. The room shouldn’t be a disaster area. And they should be able to retreat and relax and talk–or whatever else together–without the children intruding.
So I never meant to insinuate that we have a “No Trespassing” sign 24 hours a day on our room. We never have. My girls still often snuggle on top of our comforter and talk to me at night. But once we’re all in bed, my husband and I are in our little sanctuary.
And Terry, I do understand how hard it is to get kids to sleep in their own bed! I really do! And again, I don’t think that is the issue so much as much as it is valuing your husband first and trying to make time for him and having a place where you can spend that time with him.
women are discounting men’s opinions, and I don’t think that’s right. I’m not sure how women are going to be made aware of this tendency unless we talk about it in wives’ blogs.
Wherever else our opinions part ways on this thread Sheila, on that we are in 100% agreement. Even though people accuse us of bashing women and whatnot, I believe the trend in this culture is toward validating wives/women/motherhood and discounting the importance of husbands/men/fatherhood. Everything I’ve witnessed and read in recent years indicates that the vast majority of women regardless of religious affiliation or conviction have internalized this message.
And husbands are suffering for it.
@ CSPB
Hey, where have you been?
“Even though people accuse us of bashing women and whatnot”
They do? Why? This post and the post that inspired it sound reasonable.
Svar, you’d be surprised the things said about Sheila and me, not to mention Alte on some of the sites dedicated to “snarking” female bloggers who stand up for men’s needs in marriage or worse, believe in the Biblical standard for marriage. There are some who don’t think we sound reasonable at. all.
There’s quite a few haters out there.
Terry, do you remember all the hoopla about my post about how teenage girls could (partly) protect themselves from rape? Oh, my goodness, did I ever get flamed on that one! And I never even claimed you could ever be 100% safe. I just said there are some things we could do reduce the incidence. Sometimes people aren’t interested in common sense, just ideology.
But the main point, to me, is that women are discounting men’s opinions, and I don’t think that’s right.
It’s absolutely an important point but one for decisions and choices across the board not just for little specific issues. Helping others cultivate an awareness and appreciation of this important point broadly would do far more than nitpicking issues and choices that are impacted by factors that are only fully understood by the couple themselves. It’s respectful of the reality that you (using that term broadly) are an intruder and third party in a marriage–no matter how well-meaning–and need to remain outside the bedroom door (or international phone call, emails, packages, and letters as the case may be) for the sake of strong thriving marriages.
Doing so would also help you reach a broader audience which I assume you want to do to get the marriage message out.
These big ideas have truth for everybody, no matter what their situation, and produce fruit that would trickle down to all the smaller more mundane issues of marital life. Many cannot make their bedroom a haven for a variety of reasons but for all marriages there is relevance for a message of sincerely caring about a husband’s needs and opinions.
Yes, Sheila I recall that. Apparently the message that women shouldn’t go scantily dressed to a bar or frat party and then get a ride home with a handsome stranger is the height of misogyny!
And to make sure people like you and I hear the message loud and clear, we have “slut walks.”
@ Sheila and Terry
Ideology doesn’t keep your daughters safe. Most of the women who rag on you two and Alte don’t have families/children, so they fill the void by advocating faulty ideology.
Svar,
So true!
Daisy, I’m still struggling with what you’re saying. If I understand you correctly, it’s okay to say that women don’t always take into account the man’s feelings, but it’s not okay to mention specific instances, because that’s intruding on a marriage?
But isn’t that what the blogosphere does? Let me give you another example. When we give marriage conferences, we talk a ton about how to negotiate about sex, how to negotiate about workplace boundaries, the common mistakes that both genders frequently make, and all kinds of stuff. We use very specific examples, and the overwhelming feedback we get from the conferences is positive.
I think what you’re reacting to is that you don’t agree with my specific example in this case–which is perfectly fine. Terry didn’t agree with it 100% either, so she wrote a post about it, which I also linked to, so that other people can see and join the debate (and some did on the comments on my post, too, and in the section where the original article appeared).
To say that we can’t talk specifics is a little strange, if you don’t mind me saying so, because people usually do not internalize a message until you bring it home. For instance, if I were to say, “Many women don’t take into account their husband’s feelings,” most women would nod and agree absolutely, thinking about every other woman. But when you mention a specific circumstance, or a specific example, then it hits home, and the women start to say, “oh, maybe I DO do that.”
I frequently talk about very specific issues, from how to negotiate frequency of sex to how to negotiate when you see discipline in an entirely different way than your mate. In all cases, my emphasis is on how to build intimacy and agreement. But I certainly mention specific issues, because that’s the point of a blog.
So I don’t think I would be very effective if I told people how to be good wives without mentioning specifics. Of course people are free to disagree, and that’s where the interesting conversations come in, in the comments. If I didn’t think people could disagree, I wouldn’t even be commenting here! And I’ve moderated my position in the comments on my blog post and here, based on what people said.
But I still think specifics are important, and I don’t think that’s intruding in a marriage. I really don’t. If I did, then I would believe that all marriage books likewise should not be written, because they take things from the general to the specific.
Just my two cents!
I try very, very hard to keep my marriage posts general and go out of my way to say in effect, “Do what works best for you and your own husband.” I often feel like every post is as much caveat as it is post. Still, I agree that there are times when specificity is in order. There have been times that I wasn’t capable of seeing my own behavior from a clear perspective until someone “hit close to home” with an example specific to me.
One of the reasons I believe I’m able to generalize a bit more than Sheila does is because I honestly believe that one of the major problems facing modern marriages is that the men don’t receive the respect they deserve as leaders. A lot of the tension could be diffused if we as Christian women simply embraced the Truth of the Bible concerning marriage.
There is a place for offering advice in marriage. If there wasn’t the Bible wouldn’t admonish the older women to teach the younger concerning the practical realities of being a wife and mother. Ideally, this guidance should come from older women in our immediate circle: mothers, grandmothers, church mothers, etc. Sadly, for a host of reasons I don’t feel like getting into right here, many women do not have a trusted older woman in their lives with a successful marriage track record to glean from.
Some of the searches I have seen in my site stats this week alone are things like: “my husband’s personality”, “I don’t like my husband’s personality”, “grace to your spouse”, and “words to appreciate my husband.” That’s just a sample. There are many more searches specifically from women looking for guidance on how to relate to their husbands.
Now I don’t know any of these women, which is why I try to keep it general. But sometimes specificity cannot be avoided when you want to get the point across. Of course, I usually use my own marriage as the example so take whatever you get here to the Lord in prayer or with a grain of salt. Your choice, LOL.
Wow, Terry, you seem to have hit a nerve.
I guess I see the relationships as concentric circles: the marriage; the marriage and children from the marriage; the marriage, children, and extended family; the marriage, children, extended family, and community; and so on.
That’s our home, as well. We don’t really have the same reaction when we see nudity as Americans do. I’ve noticed that. We walk around in our underwear or even naked in a towel, and don’t think anything of it. I just notice the difference when I’m interacting with other people at public showers (like at the pool or gym), or at their houses.
It’s just not a sexual thing to us. It’s only sexy if the person is trying to be sexy. So, I don’t wear low-cut shirts because that would be immodest, and I’d be embarrassed if I caught someone staring at my cleavage in such a shirt. But if someone accidentally saw me in my underwear or even naked (happens in a crowded house sometimes), I wouldn’t be at all embarrassed as there’s no shame in it. I find it strange, for instance, that American baby girls wear full bathing suits. In Germany, they usually just wear bottoms.
Same here.
Of course “getting it on” or talking/cuddling isn’t necessarily limited to the bedroom. The problem I have with children wandering into my bed at night (which occasionally happens) is that I feel like there’s no “adult space” in the house. Maybe that’s just a mental hold-over from my working days, though.
I’m not reacting about this example and thought I have made it clear co-sleeping wasn’t the issue on multiple occasions in this thread but rather the problematic way the argument was framed and the lack of boundaries and regard for marriage being showcased.
As somebody who both values marriage and lives in very different circumstances than you I was offering my .02 on how you could reach a broader audience through your books and blog and in doing so impact the marriages of many for the better. In ministry ventures isn’t this what we ought to be after: bringing meaningful Christ centered conviction and challenge to as many as possible?
Imparting a strong Christian marriage philosophy that is relevant to everybody is of the utmost of importance and believe it be especially important for those who are blessed to be in a position to do so as you are. From s/he who is blessed with much is expected much. Many of your ideas can be impractical for those of lesser financial means, those who are in cross-cultural and/or interracial marriages, those with larger families, or those who have husbands who do not have the luxury of being home often. The heart of what you are saying, the big philosophy, is relevant and applicable to all but the important message gets lost by dwelling on minor issues that don’t make or break a marriage. From a good strong Christ centered philosophy flows change; not winning small battles here and there. Without this big change in worldview the small victories mean nothing for a couple will likely lose the war.
Does this mean examples shouldn’t be used? No, not at all, but the shouldn’t be the bulk of the information offered nor should they be presented in manipulative and potentially damaging ways. It’s one thing to bring up an example and quite another to bring it up with values judgment, pleas to authority, and other baggage tied to it. The former will bring up your desired effect, the “oh I do that too!”; the latter is divisive and may drudge up issues in the marriage that wouldn’t otherwise be there.
Yeah, I think the reason that my husband is rather ambivalent about co-sleeping is the fact that our sex life takes place all over the house, and not just in the bedroom. So there’s less of a one-to-one correspondence for him, and the children’s presence in our bed has little to no effect on the frequency of sex, or the quality of it. If having sex in the bed meant that we would have to be “quiet and still”, then I would just be inclined to get out of the bed and do it somewhere else, rather than humiliate my husband that way.
But it does rob me of my sleep, as the kids toss and turn and shift around constantly.
Yeah, I think the reason that my husband is rather ambivalent about co-sleeping is the fact that our sex life takes place all over the house, and not just in the bedroom. So there’s less of a one-to-one correspondence for him, and the children’s presence in our bed has little to no effect on the frequency of sex, or the quality of it.
This is generally true for us too. More like any time of day if not all over the house. Improvisation and spontaneity is the general rule for us although we do have three teens in here so discretion is important! Still, there were times when the little ones were much younger and their presence was a bit of a hindrance. Overall however, their presence in our bed has hindered our sleep more than our intimacy. I think the biggest issue here is to talk to your husband, hear his heart, and plan accordingly.
I guess what I mean is that it sounds like those couples are disagreeing more over the frequency and quality of the sex, than over co-sleeping. I suspect the women were already the “close your eyes and think of England” types, and co-sleeping gives them a further excuse to neglect their husband’s desire for physical intimacy.
If they cared about their husbands a bit more, and co-sleeping was really about co-sleeping, then they would simply make sure to have sex before going to bed. Afterward, he probably won’t care either way if the kids show up. I don’t really understand why they don’t do that, as most of the co-sleeping families I know have arranged things that way.
I think you just hit on a key point, Alte. When mates are sincerely concerned about each others needs, the deed gets done one way or another. Co-sleeping is only an issue if the children are being used as an emotional and/or physical shield to keep from having to “do one’s duty.”
Sheila, may I add that I hope there is no ill will between us.
None of my words were offered in malice but out on concern for a message that could easily be perverted and bring about great harm. I, too, actively work on marriage issues through my military volunteer work and have seen very good results come from a message that is radically different than the one you present, both in my own work as well as at marriage retreats and conferences. A message that is inclusive to the entire Christian family and adequately addresses the variety of needs faced by unique couples produces much fruit.
There is a place for offering advice in marriage. If there wasn’t the Bible wouldn’t admonish the older women to teach the younger concerning the practical realities of being a wife and mother. Ideally, this guidance should come from older women in our immediate circle: mothers, grandmothers, church mothers, etc. Sadly, for a host of reasons I don’t feel like getting into right here, many women do not have a trusted older woman in their lives with a successful marriage track record to glean from.
I was just thinking the same thing, Terry. I don’t see an offer of opinion as inserting oneself into another couples marriage, particularly when one is writing in ones own space, or as a general topic of conversation, virtual or otherwise. In fact, the default to exiting from each others lives is part of a big Church disconnect – being in each others business to be expected, to a certain extent, when people care for each other. It’s odd, but there are so many posts and comments about how the Church stood by and did nothing while a marriage turned ugly, or a parent needed support dealing with a wayward child, or a caregiver needed encouragement while attending a dying relative. So, which will it be? Involvement with one another (and I’m not speaking of gossip or empty “we’ll pray for you”‘s), or separation?
I’m encouraged by the variety of descriptions of happy family life just in this conversation – I sincerely appreciate Sheila’s (hi, Sheila!) insight based on her personal experience and her husbands medical expertise. Your, my, Altes, Nurse Bees, Daisy’s, Bike Bubba’s, etc., are each slightly different – we do what we do out of respect for our marriages knowing that is the best way to love our children. As I see it, Sheila and you are encouraging women to discuss the matter with their husbands and husbands to be , early and often (circumstances change), and make sure it isn’t creating a false obstacle. That’s true in every avenue of marriage. The new help-phrase in mommy blog world seems to be “keep your eyes on your own paper” – I agree. I only pray we won’t borrow it as one more reason to neglect one another. I see that as a much greater risk than the overstepping of boundaries.
Hi, Everybody! Daisy, no, I definitely didn’t see it as ill will, and after I posted the last time I felt I was a little too snarky, so I regretted it immediately. I’m a little bored today and can’t start a major project I have due until Monday, so I’ve spent way too much time on the internet today!
Anyway, I do see your point, and I think you’re right; I should have started with the PRINCIPLE and then worked towards the SPECIFIC. Good point, and one I will try to remember.
I do think the original article did that; in this one I was reacting to something specific, so that’s what made the whole thing come up again. And even in that follow-up blog post, co-sleeping wasn’t the main topic; it was how we as women often displace our husbands when kids come, which was meant to be the general. So I think this all got jumbled because we’re reacting to blog posts which were reactions to others! But nonetheless, I like your point, and perhaps from now on I’ll make a point of making my general point first, in bold.
First off, I’m not playing both sides. I really happen to believe that both Daisy and Sheila (and Cottage Child) are making valid points. There’s as many ways to look at this issue as there are couples dealing with it. This is why I think it is so important for anyone who reads a book or a blog to know themselves and their husband well enough to take what works, or enbrace the general principle, and discard that which is not helpful or valid.
I think Sheila and her husband do great work. The reality is that the majority of married couples are not military couples. A military wife should go to someone like Daisy or another military wife to discuss issues and get guidance. Women like me or Sheila, who are with our husbands most of the time, might not be the best place to go for advice on some issues.
Not to brag, but I do think I do a pretty good job here of presenting what I believe is true in a way that most anyone can embrace it. BUT…for a military couple, it is of the utmost importance that sexual advice such as “do it all the time” be weighed against the benefits of knowing that when the need arises, you have a spouse who is emotionally mature enough and physically disciplined enough to withstand long separations without having to worry and without having trust issues crop up. That’s why I think military couples need to seek out other military couples for guidance.
This is equally true for couples with many children or couples with only one or two children. The dynamics are different, the finances are different, many things are different. This is why I would hope that anyone who reads my blog or Sheila’s blogs or books would be able to do like I said in my earlier comment: take it to the Lord or take it with a grain of salt. Whichever is more appropriate.
But I think Cottage Child is 100% correct. The answer is NOT for all of us to retreat to our own little corner and say “Well, you don’t know me or my husband so there’s nothing you can say that’s of value to me.” I don’t even think that’s a Biblical position.
I don’t think anyone was saying that (least of all Daisy since I know she and her husband helps other couples), but I think when we demand that every issue be presented in the most general terms we effectively shut the door on building camaraderie and receiving counsel that helps and creates a lasting impact, don’t we?
I’m a little bored today and can’t start a major project I have due until Monday, so I’ve spent way too much time on the internet today!
I don’t think it’s wasted time though and this exchange, even if heated, was enjoyable and convicting to me….even if I feel a little like a jerk for having entered it. heh. I was going to send you an apology email as I felt guilty after the entire thing got heated.
I’m right there with you on all counts.
My husband and I were discussing this debate once he got home this afternoon and he mentioned how he’s found himself getting into the trap of being prescriptive as opposed to merely suggestive when asked about martial advice by younger, often newlywed, soldiers. He added that this has become all the more problematic as he’s gained rank and we’ve earned more money and is no longer quite as close with junior enlisted families as I am through my volunteer work. The date night, master bedroom to yourselves, and making the room comfy and pretty are great–in principle–but can only happen by those of us with the financial means to enjoy such perks.
Yet the core idea doesn’t require much money or necessarily any at all. A couple can have a date night at home on a set night every week. They could pick up a DVD from the library and perhaps cook a special dinner to enjoy after the little ones are in bed. Babysitting could be swapped with friends or a babysitter even shared between two families to save money. If a teeny apartment must have the crib in the living room there are larger more comfy sectional sofas if you catch my drift. The possibilities are endless but can get neglected when we project ourselves, as opposed to our target audience, into the equation.
My husband summed it up better than I did: we must be suggestive not prescriptive and not take it for granted that other people posses the same discernment that we do as they often do not.
A fair portion of my time is spent addressing upset caused by wildly inappropriate advice from the well-meaning but inexperienced with military life who don’t know when to shush or else dealing with upset caused by a lack of discernment in reading blogs or books or attending civilian targeted marital programs. There is a lot of pain and grief out there caused by people who lack boundaries in their marriage and can’t shut down the outside influences, perhaps more than we even realize. There are many ill chosen words that can send those without a good deal of trust into their husbands into a terrible abyss of confusion. This was what I hoping to get at and am terribly sorry for the offense and fireworks I’ve caused by making my point rather poorly.
As somebody who does have a larger platform than myself, Terry, and everybody else you do have much more opportunity to get the “discern discern discern” message out to those who badly need to hear it and check everything against Scripture…and often common sense as well.
The answer is NOT for all of us to retreat to our own little corner and say “Well, you don’t know me or my husband so there’s nothing you can say that’s of value to me.” I don’t even think that’s a Biblical position.
Terry, no it’s not and that’s not what I’m trying to advocate for. A couple must protect their marriage from challenges as best they can and part of this means deciding what they will and will not share with others and what areas they deem appropriate to accept advice on and from whom.
For instance we do not discuss specifics of our sex life…ever. It’s shockingly common for people to be very frank about such issues in the military, and believe when I say I know waayyy tooooo much about too many people, but we choose not to indulge. Now if we had a couple or members of a couple who came to us privately and shared about a struggle with remaining faith, p*rn usage, that sort of thing and needing help and support that would be a different story entirely but as a rule that boundary remains.
We also place a much higher value on marital advice from older military couples with whom we’re close than those civilian couples who haven’t ever had a long distance marriage. There are many civilian couples we love and who have shared great advice with us but it’s not quite the same bond as shared with our military friends at this point in our lives.
As outsiders we must use discretion to not go from “helper” to “meddler” and realize that we aren’t always in the position to share or be useful. What I might share with a wife of a soldier in my husband’s unit who has come to me for advice and with whom I have a meaningful connection with would be very different than what I’d be willing to offer to a stranger who sent an email about whom I know nothing. KWIM? The mentorship in Titus 2 speaks of a real honest to goodness relationship building between women not just a one time advice session.
I hope that puts my statement into better context.
Yes, Daisy, your comment makes sense. It expresses perfectly what I was attempting to convey. I admit that I tend to assume that people have the discernment to discard advice that isn’t relevant to them. I need to work on that. ANd I know that Titus 2 mentoring wasn’t meant to be done virtually, hence my statement above:
There is a place for offering advice in marriage. If there wasn’t the Bible wouldn’t admonish the older women to teach the younger concerning the practical realities of being a wife and mother. Ideally, this guidance should come from older women in our immediate circle: mothers, grandmothers, church mothers, etc. Sadly, for a host of reasons I don’t feel like getting into right here, many women do not have a trusted older woman in their lives with a successful marriage track record to glean from.
A while back, I even did a series of posts on the problem of attempting to engage in Titus 2 mentoring via the Internet. Maybe I’ll run those again since they’re from my Blogger days and I think you’re one of the few current readers who was around back then Daisy.
Discernment can be difficult when the speaker is very convincing or the package very pretty. Or when one is really young. All that you know of my faith journey should prove that fact all too well.
I sincerely doubt I’m your only reader whose been haunting your place for that long but you should run those posts again. It’s an important message and one well worth reading a second time. You have quite a few pieces from the “old days” that would likely be appreciated by your current audience if you ever need a break from coming up with new posts.
Discernment can be difficult when the speaker is very convincing or the package very pretty. Or when one is really young.
Lack of discernment is not restricted to the very young…
Daisy,
As I’ve been reading the comments, much of what you’ve said has resonated intensely with my own experience. Not so much the specifics, but the hard-earned knowledge that confusion, frustration, guilt and suspicion of those who speak as an authority can result from mistakenly placing faith in the words of another person (however godly) rather than in Christ and His promise of salvation to those who trust Him.
I can understand where Daisy is coming from. Particularly when the person would like to do what may be suggested, but it just isn’t feasible for them to do. And when it may be presented as “this is what is good/necessary for a Christian to d0″ it can be guilt-inducing and/or frustrating.
So maybe we should all be praying for discernment?
That, and talking to our husbands. Of course, and I’ve found that this is a huge problem for some women, we need to be willing to hear what they are saying, be wiling to change or accommodate as needed if we can, and not just write off their concerns as selfish or unimportant because what they view as a priority isn’t a priority to us.
Oh, and this:
the hard-earned knowledge that confusion, frustration, guilt and suspicion of those who speak as an authority can result from mistakenly placing faith in the words of another person…
Here’s the thing Heather: We will always be bombarded with messages from within and without the church. Much of it will extemporaneous nonsense that the messenger hasn’t weighed heavily before they say. But some of it is good stuff in general that may not apply to our specific situation. Doesn’t mean it isn’t good advice, or even godly advice. That brings us back to discernment, doesn’t it?
I think so often women’s gullibility ( I’ve been there once or twice, though I admit I tend to skew toward cynicism) puts us in a place where we have a pendulum swing and distrust the words of just about anyone in authority, but that’s not necessarily a good thing either. God intends for us to encourage, admonish, exhort, and share with one another. Better if its up close and personal. Now there are folk like me who by virtue of our blogs, set ourselves up as a type of authority. I’m analyzing the wisdom of that of late. But then there are people like Sheila and her husband who have a very large platform bestowed on them by others who deemed their marriage and wisdom as worthy of being shared. They tend to present their information in general because they have such a large audience. It can be done no other way, really.
This is why we need discernment and good relationships with other believers. Discernment helps us navigate, use, and discard information as necessary. Relationships allow those closest to us and those we’re closest to, to help us figure out our dilemmas in a God-honoring way.
My, my. I am chiming in here very late and I did not read all the comments, but skimmed through. I know what I am about to write has been covered, but I am going to put in my thoughts anyway.
After trying the co-sleeper crib a week or two, which was more disruptive to our sleeping, my daughter slept between with us while she was breastfed, only because she and I both would go right back to sleep and she would not even wet her diaper until the morning. What a dream baby she was waking up all smiles every morning! When she was no longer feeding at night, I placed her in a co-sleeper next to the bed at night for a time. However, during the day, she always napped in her crib. I do not remember when she began sleeping in her crib through the night, but it was a very easy transition for her and one that she wanted because she had so many of her friends (stuffed animals and dolls) she wanted to sleep with at that time. She also had a lamb cozy (blanket-like stuffed friend) that she had since she was an infant, and she always slept with Sammy Lamby, so that no matter where she was, she could easily sleep because she had him with her. I could even place her in her crib during a loud thunder storm and sometimes she would watch it out the window for a few minutes before she would go to sleep, because I had taken her outside on the front porch and made a game of watching the lightning and waiting for the thunder. She had no fears of being alone in her room. Because our bedroom was a “special place” for her parents, she made her bedroom her special place too.
Once she began walking she was not allowed to go into our bedroom without asking and being invited, even if the door was open and she could see us. Our bedroom was our sanctuary. This was something my aunt did and I always found it to say much about the importance she put on the intimacy of her marriage. Her children did not feel left out or slighted, and neither has my daughter. It is simply a boundary. I mean, I have perimeter-trained our dogs yet they feel loved and secure and stay in our yard without fencing of any kind, and giving a similar boundary to a child is a healthy thing, I believe. I never even had to put special door latches on the cupboards or put guards in outlets or a fence off the stairway!
Now, through the years I have heard younger mothers complain about how their children do not give them any privacy, how they cry outside of the bathroom door if it is locked while they shower or walk right in if not. This does not happen in my home because my daughter learned from the beginning that our bedroom and our bathroom were places for our privacy that she should respect and likewise her bedroom and when she is in the bathroom, she is given age-appropriate privacy as well.
All that said, I find that this worked well for my family, but I am an older mother who had worked with teens through our church for some years and I have seen the results of differing types of parenting. My husband has had crazy work schedules and often worked at night back then. Now and then over the years my daughter asks to sleep on her Daddy’s side of the bed when he is traveling for work and sometimes I say yes and sometimes no and most of the time she does not even ask, but just sleeps in her own bed. I can say that there does not seem to be one formula that is a win-win situation for all families, simply because all situations are not the same. It really is not about whether co-sleeping is good or bad in general, but whether it is good for your family…and I do not mean for now, I mean what will be the long term effect. I have seen emotionally healthy results from co-sleeping, although not necessarily the result of it alone but of emotionally healthy relationships, and I have seen co-sleeping enabling unhealthy dependencies. If a parent is telling me that s/he has no privacy, I have to ask if s/he ever really did anything to “teach” the children about privacy. However, if my husband had issues with any part of our arrangement, I know that my marriage would be the deciding factor. You just cannot have a healthy family without a healthy marriage.
@seekingmyLord:
However, if my husband had issues with any part of our arrangement, I know that my marriage would be the deciding factor. You just cannot have a healthy family without a healthy marriage.
This is in essence, the crux of the matter and what I (obviously very badly) was trying to convey.
I think Daisy and Heather and “A Reader” were making the case that a couple can mutually agree to allow their little ones to co-sleep and still have a healthy marriage. That they may not (rather of necessity or choice) have secluded haven of bedroom but can still have a healthy marriage.
As I have pondered this issue some more, I agree with them. Our children slept in our room, and our marriage hasn’t suffered for it. Of course, my husband was in full agreement and I know that he was because I was the one complaining about their presence when I woke up sleep-deprived; not him!
I think a healthy and robust intimate life is good for a marriage. I think we need to be careful not to relegate sex to a once in a while event. But we need to also be careful of the way we convey that.
In this specific case, I am having a turn of thoughts and wondering if we are sometimes preaching a message of “sexual gluttony” (h/t to Alte for the phrase). I think you know where I’m coming from. While I agree that women (in my experience and conversation) really do defraud their husbands in the area, I don’t know if it’s the best policy to feed the notion that constant sex is the key to a happy marriage because things happen in life that force us not to be able to live “normal” lives for a season or for a lifetime. Sickness, accidents, disabilities, etc. Even childbirth!
In such cases the supporting spouse needs to be able to be counted on and needs to understand their commitment to the words “for better or for worse, in sickness and in health” I know these are extreme cases, but they do deserve some consideration as they are realities for some people. I would hate for anything I say here to be a discouragement to couples living through such a season. So again, pray for discernment.
Just needed to get that out.