If I hear another person from the Obama administration, or Planned Parenthood, or NOW, or some other leftist/feminist group claim that birth control is a woman’s right, I think I may just scream. Seriously, birth control is a right?
And frankly, how stupid do they think we are? First, Catholic institutions are required to foot the bill for their female employees birth control. An uproar is heard from the right and the religious all at once. So a “compromise” is reached. Here is my paraphrased version of said compromise:
“Okay, okay, I hear you. We don’t want to infringe on the Church’s religious freedom or right to operate according to the dictates of its conscience. So, the Church doesn’t have to provide the birth control. The insurance carrier will be ordered to provide the birth control at no cost. This way everyone gets what they want. The Church’s right to religious freedom is honored, and a woman’s right to health care (i.e. birth control) is respected as well.”
What in the world?? Who please tell, is paying the insurance premiums to the insurance companies covering employees at Catholic places of employment? Is it not the Catholic Church? So how, please tell, is this any kind of compromise? I dare say that it isn’t. The Church is still covering the cost of the birth control.
But when anything and everything is a Constitutional right, this is what you get.
Side bar: I am well aware that the Catholic church has far too often sided with the left on issues of social welfare. And it has been opined at numerous places around the ‘net that this should have been expected. Maybe that is true, but it still doesn’t change the fact that women don’t have a right to birth control so this is a fight that never should have been started.
Is this any opening salvo in a political season where there will be increased encroachment on Church at large? I think it just may be.
I am not interested in a discussion of whether or not the Catholic church is a part of Christ’s church.
From the liberal/statist perspective, there is no difference between Protestants and Catholics and we are all going to be treated as if there is no difference.
It’s interesting to me how obsessed the American people appears to be with the notion of rights. I get that there are some things which are supposedly guaranteed as citizens under our Constitution, but often, we try to cash in without actually making an effort to be responsible with what we’ve been given.
A primary problem with state defined rights (as opposed to state protected, God-defined privileges) is that whatever the state has “gifted” to the citizenry, it can easily dictate the when, how and who of its use.
The shredding of freedom for, say, the Catholic church may not even register in the minds of those who do not consider themselves to be “religious”. However, people who are today demanding the “right to choose” may one day find themselves without choice when the govt is enforcing said “right” in order to benefit the yet to be defined “greater good”.
We need to be concerned with speaking out against true injustice wherever it occurs.
Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered. Proverbs 21:31
I’ve often considered this with regard to such issues as abortion. It kind of echoes the sentiment that what goes around, comes around.
A primary problem with state defined rights (as opposed to state protected, God-defined privileges) is that whatever the state has “gifted” to the citizenry, it can easily dictate the when, how and who of its use.
I like the way you expressed that Heather. Thanks for adding your thoughts.
I have nothing to say about the American Catholic Church except that is not American or Catholic. I’ve read too much on the betrayal of American churches and American Catholics towards Rome to have any hope in them.
There is some difficulty being created by the use of the word “right”. The dictionary isn’t much help for two reasons. 1, Dictionaries often include obscure uses of the word, permitting sloppy diction. 2, most people do not refer to dictionaries. Still. it is an appropriate use of the word “right” to describe all manner of things depending on teh source.
Of course we all are familiar with our God-given rights (whatever those might be). But we also have Constitutional rights. If you change the constitution, you change your rights. So rights are mutable. State constitutions also confer rights to their citizens. You can even have rights cnfered through private contracts. If I lease a car, then I have the right to use that car, consistent with the terms of my lease. If I get married, I have certain rights WRT my spouse that I did not have prior to getting married.
The further difficulty in the current argument is that proponents of feminist causes deliberatly choose words to intentionally mislead reasonable people. While you can grant that a woman has an absolute right to control her own birth processes, as well has her blood pressure and cholesterol, that is entirely separate from granting her a right to take whatever she wants from other people to satify her rights. To do so would remove the rights of free people to keep and beneft from their own property, since the birth control pills belong to the pharmacy until someone buys them in free exchange.
To make matters even worse, this isn’t even an argument about poor women having access to things they cant afford, it is about women who have health insurance not even wanting to pay the co-pays for the Pill, just like they do for all of their other meds. What makes birth control pills so special that they derve this kind of provision? The Pill is used exclusively by women. hat makes it a “women’s issue”. Therefore, anyone who resists it on principles is “against women” and wants to keep women enslaved in unhappy marriages raising bratty kids (her own) instead of following her dreams to be a corporate CEO. I am sure that Planned Parenthood’s role as a major supplier of birth control pills has nothing to do with this.
I can understand someone saying that women have the right to buy and use birth control. But to say that it is a right for it to be provided to them? That’s a stretch. If one leans in the direction of “birth control is a good thing” why not say, “It’s important and would be prudent for us to provide it to poor women” without employing the word “right?”
@ Professor Hale:
This is the crux of the matter. Since BC pills are a legal pharmacological item, women have every right to purchase them if they so desire. They do not however, have a “right” to free access to them.
@Courtney:
Indeed. It is a stretch. And welcome!
Much of this argument about the Obamacare decree and Catholic institutions centers around religious liberty and “freedom of religion” vs “freedom of worship”. But I think this all misses the point.
Really, this is about property, and about what limits are placed on the State’s ability to tell one what one may do with one’s stuff. “Stuff” of course also extending beyond one’s possessions to one’s own body and the fruits of his labors.
In this case, the present Administration is claiming that they have the “right” to take something from one and give it to another.
On this issue, the RCC as well as the bulk of Prot churches have unclean hands. Both happily leverage the State to accomplish their ends, the former in particular when it comes to welfare and other social spending. Now we see how foolhardy it is for a Church to assert that the State can seize the property of citizens for ends which the Church agrees with; it undermines the ability of that same Church to push back when the State then attempts to do the same unto the Church as the Church was doing unto others.
“…as the Church was applauding the State doing unto others.”
I am sure that Planned Parenthood’s role as a major supplier of birth control pills has nothing to do with this.
It’s worth noting here the intensely racist foundations of PP and that the evidence that the pro-women’s health/choice language is a smokescreen. The historical movement is hardly about “women’s issues”, but was a veiled attempt to encourage minority (and other supposedly “undesirable”) individuals to voluntarily limit the number of their offspring.
And, then there’s the reality that a baby can be denied the Constitutionally provided “right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” simply because (s)he is not considered to be a human being by those who would benefit from his/her pre-birth demise.
Interesting how our demand for personal “rights”, apart from exercise of personal responsibility, so often results in the smothering of someone else’s right to something.
Elspeth,
You are looking at this all wrong. Cash your chips in honey, the USA is socialized now. Instead of telling people what their rights are not, you need to start looking out for you girl. Start thinking of some rights you are going to fight for.
I for one am starting Chocolate Eaters Stand Up And Get You Some On The Taxpayers Dollar (CESUAGYSOTTD for short). There are tax dollars out there and I am going to get my share.
WHOSE WITH ME!
Many Blessings :0
Ace
On this issue, the RCC as well as the bulk of Prot churches have unclean hands. Both happily leverage the State to accomplish their ends, the former in particular when it comes to welfare and other social spending.
True. And Professor Hale touched a bit on your point concerning property as well. If a woman wants birth control, she should by her own. No one should be forced to provide it for her. BC is an elective and not a necessary medical expense.
Heaven forbid we suggest single women remain abstinent or married women either procreate or buy their own pills.
Interesting how our demand for personal “rights”, apart from exercise of personal responsibility, so often results in the smothering of someone else’s right to something.
Profoundly true.
Heather is correct. It is a painful thing to me to have to educate my minority family members who champion this “right” to murder other minority babies that it has nothing to do with their rights as women, but an evil plot by the “white man” (or women rather) that they so despise for a premptive strike. To see their eyes when they give it a second, to realize they are fighting a race war AGAINST themselves….then the glazing over, the comforting coma over takes them again.
Sigh.
Same things happens when I try to explain the whole “No, the Jesus in the catholic church is not the Jesus in the Bible” thing.
Thank God He made me stubborn
Hey, Ace, LOL.
I am so glad you have decided to come back and visit me from time to time and add your unique and comical take on things.
As funny as your comment is, it has sadly come down to just that. Everybody grabbing for their slice of the pie.
I like chocolate, but I’m trying to cut back so I don’t look like a chocolate Pillsbury dough girl, LOL.
However, I could use some subsidizing of my organic milk and egg purchases. That stuff is expensive! And it’s better for you than artificial hormone pills so I shouldn’t have any problem getting someone to foot the bill for that.
Professor Hale, please stop using common sense when arguing your point. It is confusing
Elspeth, I am sorry…did you just say what I think you did. I am sure you are aware that a swat team is most likely heading your way. You CANNOT decide for yourself to eat organic and don’t you dare decide to drink that milk RAW!
I am sorry, I will be reporting you. You know, you really should have just gone with me and my fight for chocolate rights. I am so sorry you decided to be subversive LOL.
Can you tell I have had it friend? I swear, there are times I think I am living in a Monty Python film, especially with the headlines. I cannot even look at them today. I cannot take the latest onslaught of insanity.
I have choclate on my mind because of Vday. The General refused to listen to me and bought me some (been knocking some weight off myself, very inspired by your posts on that).
It is evil. And I am doing my very best to rid that evil from my house…one delicious…bite..at a time…..
We should be rid of it by tomorrow and then back to Zumba LOL.
Ace
Okay, I gotta go finish cooking, but can I just say that I feel your pain on the chocolate?
We don’t usually do V-day as a couple but my husband bought chocolate for his girls and decided he should buy me a box, too. So this house is brimming with chocolates, LOL. I haven’t overdone it, but even the couple of pieces I ate feel like they went straight to the hips.
However, if it’ll keep the authorities at bay (hope you haven’t called them yet), I can get behind your push for subsidized chocolate.
Did I ever tell you that I love that you call your husband “The General”?
It sounds so oppressive, LOL.
I’m posting this everywhere I frequent that has covered this topic.
Great article on the American RC’s response and responsibility concerning the HHS mandate.
http://ricochet.com/main-feed/American-Catholicism-s-Pact-With-the-Devil
Christ in the RCC is the same Christ in the Bible, heretics, er, errants. 2000 years don’t lie.
@ CC
Yeah, Rome needs to excommunicate alot more. The Pope needs to lay down a hard line.
@ Ace
Always the White Man at fault? It’s not the white man’s fault if most minorities can’t understand politics. Or reality.
That’s why I get my political cues from the fine white men here: http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/
They know what they’re talking about. Like how abortion is wrong because life starts at conception not because the White Man promotes it.
Svar,
Ace said that the abortion/birth control brigade was started by an evil white woman, LOL. I think it was a reference to Margaret Sanger, not a reference to white men as an entity. Given that minorities tend to vote en masse for the very party that champions these evils imposed largely by feminists, she thought it might be good if they stopped to recognize that their support is misplaced.
She can set the record straight herself, but I’m fairly certain I have this right. Hopefully she’ll return and defend herself since she’s more than capable and isn’t one to back away from what she believes, LOL.
“…the abortion/birth control brigade was started by an evil…”
Stop there, for a second. While reading that, It just dawned on me that abortion strikes at the heart of the battle against evil.
“I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”
Abortion, spiritually–aside from the individual murder–is the negation of the her offspring to bruise the serpent’s head. It’s an intrinsically pro-evil decision to stunt the powers of good to fight back.
I’m sure popes and various RC luminaries have written much more about this. It was just a realization I had.
Elspeth, it makes no difference. Minorities and degenerate and defective whites will always vote for the Evil Party and (normal)whites will always vote for the Stupid Party. The Republican Party has always been the party of criminals(like Lincoln), bankers, and other ultra-capitalists. TBH, the Stupid Party isn’t better than the Evil one; Tom Piatak, a (gasp)white man: http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2011/04/13/the-republicans-and-abortion/
For conservatism to gain a foothold as Clyde Wilson, another white(oh noes!) man, said the GOP must die.
Good insight, Cane.
Elspeth, it makes no difference. Minorities and degenerate and defective whites will always vote for the Evil Party and (normal)whites will always vote for the Stupid Party.
“Always” is a pretty binding concept; and Elspeth is of “the minority” yet does not happen to fit the above description.
Ace’s sarcasm regarding the “evil white man” was pretty evident. Regardless of skin color or intelligence level, people choose wrongly when our priorities are wrong. That can happen to any of us.
I’ve always heard it explained like this:
A true right is one which, when exercised, does not force anyone else to change his/her behaviour. So I can exercise my freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, without requiring anyone else to do anything.
A fake right, on the other hand, is one way. It is afforded to person A, but in affording it, you simultaneously create an obligation to person B. So if a person has a “right” to health care, then the doctor must be forced to provide that right. If a person has a “right” to an income, then a taxpayer must be forced to provide that income. If a person has a “right” to birth control, then others must be compelled to pay for it.
If, in exercising a right, we have to compel anyone else to take an action, then it is not a real right–even if that person was willing to take that action. A true, natural right is something one just has, without anyone else needing to do anything. Everything else is just fake.
Sheila from To Love, Honor and Vacuum!
“A true right is one which, when exercised, does not force anyone else to change his/her behaviour. So I can exercise my freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, without requiring anyone else to do anything.”
This isn’t exactly true. Freedom of association, for example, requires another person’s acquiescence.
First, there are at least two kinds of rights. Natural rights are those explained in the Declaration of Independence: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These are the rights strove for an exercised as forcefully as possible even among those most dependent; from infants, to prisoners, to slaves.
The second are governmental, or social. The right to bear arms isn’t a natural right; nor is freedom of religion. While you can restrict the right of someone to, say, sacrifice chickens to voodoo loa (inhibiting their right to freedom of religion), you cannot inhibit their natural right to be happy despite the restriction. That is: you can’t stop them from the desire to sacrifice chickens.
If American Christians want our governmental rights to reflect our beliefs, we’re going to have to exclude the others. We have to say, “You and your chickens may go to Hell, and you child sacrificing abortionists too.”
You fall into a severe Godiva induced coma for a few days and find that you need to come back and set some things straight LOL.
You know what though? I just got some fake nails and I can’t type so well.
Elspeth and Heather are well aware of my twisted sense of humor, so as long as they know I am good.
Svar, friend, do yourself a favor and get a bit of history under your belt before you attempt to simply hurl your feeling at me as fact. Your brainwashing is showing.
Frankly it happens to me so often I am becoming hardened by it. If one more Catholic screams at me (and yes, this has happened in person to me more then once in the last month) that my beliefs and theirs are the same because they say so and refuse to accept reality I may…I don’t know…I may eat some freakin communion wafers for lunch right in front of them.
And, I would say that our very nice hostess here more then defies your little statements of facts.
Sigh, I get to the point where I doubt truth will ever make a difference for many, but remember that someone opened my eyes once.
The world weary Ace
Elspeth LOL! The General enjoys it when I call him “THE GENERAL” as well. We both enjoy it when I do it in front of feminists. It is one of my goals in life to make them crazy LOL.
I just dropped by to livin up your blog friend. I haven’t started a flame war in awhile
Ace
Ace, you’re cute. Do you even know what history is? Do you know what heresy means?
“Frankly it happens to me so often I am becoming hardened by it. If one more Catholic screams at me (and yes, this has happened in person to me more then once in the last month) that my beliefs and theirs are the same because they say so and refuse to accept reality I may…I don’t know…I may eat some freakin communion wafers for lunch right in front of them.”
When did I say that? We DON’T believe the same things. You believe in your silly heresies(you’re Evangelical aren’t ya?), while I believe in the Faith. I get my historical and religious cues from G. K. Chesterton, Hillaire Belloc, Thomas Fleming, Pat Buchanan, Scott P. Richert, and Joseph Sobran. I get my other historic cues from Clyde Wilson(High-Church Anglican), Srdja Trifkovic(Serbian Orthodox), and Aaron D. Wolf(Lutheran). So really, I’m not brainwashed. I was when I’d listen to stupid MSM prattle but I’ve long since stopped that habit.
I’m open to logic and if you can logically point out why my faith-tradition is wrong, I’ll cede.
“And, I would say that our very nice hostess here more then defies your little statements of facts.”
I agree with you and Heather on that. But exceptions don’t make the rules. As a rule, what I said still stands. I just shouldn’t have said always.
Just to be clear, I have nothing against the Reformed/Calvinists, traditionalist Anglicans, traditionalist Lutherans, SSPXers, and Eastern Orthodox folk. We have more similarities than not and while I think that they are slightly wrong, they are not too wrong to end up with something that doesn’t resemble Christianity(like mainline and Evangelicalism). As Pope Benedict XVI would say, they(minus Eastern Orthodox whom we schismed from and the SSPXer who are technically heretics) are not heretics but errant Christians.
testing
Svar,
Answered in the order asked (and already erased once by the crazy internets).
1. Thank you. Actually, I am more on the side of beautiful, but I forgive you.
2. Yes. But I understand why you ask since I can’t seem to find any body in real life who knows what it is either LOL.
3. What the Bible defines it as or what the Catholic Church defines it as? Because they are two very different things. And yes, I do know what both define it as. Do you?
4.Svar | February 16, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
Christ in the RCC is the same Christ in the Bible, heretics, er, errants. 2000 years don’t lie.
Hope that refreshes your memory.
5. Yep, you got it. We do not believe the same things if you do not believe in the Bible and instead believe that salavtion is throught membership in the Catholic Church.
6. How on earth would you know what I believe? No I am not evangelical (seriously bro, think about that and re-read my comments again. Ever met one of those who would comment like I do).
And where do you get off calling what evangelicals believe heresy? If you claim to believe in the Jesus of the Bible LOGIC would follow that you would read and follow the Bible AND then further logic would follow you would compare that to what is taught in the RCC and see a major problem there. But hey, that is me.
Keep in mind, Evangelicals consider the source of their faith God and Catholics go by what MEN have set forth. BIG difference. And I will take God over man any day.
7. For this argument’s sake, you just further hamstrung yourself. You are claiming that your ideas come from other men, I am claiming that mine come from God Himself.
8. Brainwashing is often accomplished with the victim having no idea that it happened, nor that it is still happening. Keep that in mind. Yes, it is horrifying to see what passes for news now a days. Keep that in mind when you take the word of other men over the word of God. Get curious and open the Bible.
9. Fine, google “Voddie Bauchman, Why I believe the Bible is the word of God”. Take a listen. Then, IF I am saying the the Bible is not only historically accurate, but is the word of God…then I am ALSO PROVING that the MAN-MADE traditions and beliefs of ALL other religions (including those that are mixtures) are wrong.
10. You simply cannot defend yourself by saying that if you said something different you would have been right. Sorry, you failed. Just say you are wrong. You said “always”, deal with it.
11. Your problem is you are still listening to fallen man instead of God. Fallen man can easily get together and find a lot in common. I could care less. If you had read the Bible you would know you are specifically warned to worry when all men speak well of you.
The Pope isn’t the last word on the issue, God is and the Pope aint’ God.
Jesus the Christ claims that salvation is IN NO OTHER NAME but his. That is what the Bible says. That is NOT what your church says.
It would be important for you to understand that I have survived YEARS of Catholic indoctrination and am well versed in various religions since childhood. That is what happens when you are raise by two former Catholics who practice witchcraft and Buddisim…before converting to Christianity lite.
But unlike you, I am also well versed in the Bible. Get a King James Version (not the new) and read. And listen to God instead of any man.
Hope this pisses you off enough that you look into it. It is how someone else got through to my ingorant butt too.
Ace
“Thank you. Actually, I am more on the side of beautiful, but I forgive you.”
Pics or it didn’t happen.
“Yes. But I understand why you ask since I can’t seem to find any body in real life who knows what it is either LOL.”
True. That being said…. I’ve heard of this one little church that happened to create the West after the fall of the Roman Empire. Which also happened to be founded by Christ, Himself… Do you know what the name of that church would be?
“What the Bible defines it as or what the Catholic Church defines it as? Because they are two very different things. And yes, I do know what both define it as. Do you?”
Hmm… That’s a great way of rationalizing heresy. But the One True Church and the Word define the same way. Prots define whatever way they want. Besides, look at your churches. It’s one thing for the laymen to act wayward, but to change church doctrine to accommodate that? My church may be infested with radical elements from the 68ers, but they’ll soon die off. Atleast my church hasn’t changed it’s doctrine(no, VII was not a change in doctrine even though I’m not too fond of most of it). Isn’t divorce and contraception acceptable in your faith-tradition? Yep.
“Yep, you got it. We do not believe the same things if you do not believe in the Bible and instead believe that salavtion is throught membership in the Catholic Church.”
There is no salvation outside of the Church. There are many who believe in God but do not obey His commands. Are they saved? Nope: http://southernvermontcrank.blogspot.com/2012/02/salvation-or-damnation-it-is-your.html
Belief alone is comforting thought. But, that’s only one part of the equation.
“And where do you get off calling what evangelicals believe heresy? If you claim to believe in the Jesus of the Bible LOGIC would follow that you would read and follow the Bible AND then further logic would follow you would compare that to what is taught in the RCC and see a major problem there. But hey, that is me.”
Where do I get off calling what Evangelicals believe heresy? Easy. It’s like calling a spade, a spade.
“For this argument’s sake, you just further hamstrung yourself. You are claiming that your ideas come from other men, I am claiming that mine come from God Himself.”
Not really. My political stances and understanding of history come from other men. My understanding of Christian tradition comes from other men, as it should(women can’t preach). The basic gist of what I believe comes from the Bible, God’s Word.
“Brainwashing is often accomplished with the victim having no idea that it happened, nor that it is still happening. Keep that in mind. Yes, it is horrifying to see what passes for news now a days. Keep that in mind when you take the word of other men over the word of God. Get curious and open the Bible.”
Uh-huh. If you show me a group of people that have a firmer grasp on the current situations that we of the West find ourselves in, tell me. Till then, I’m sticking to the Paleocons.
“Then, IF I am saying the the Bible is not only historically accurate, but is the word of God…then I am ALSO PROVING that the MAN-MADE traditions and beliefs of ALL other religions (including those that are mixtures) are wrong. ”
Hahaha, lol. You don’t know what Natural Law is, do you? Apparently you don’t. C.S. Lewis was smart enough to realize that there are elements of the Truth in all religions(I’ve noticed this to be true as well when reading up on the Indo-European religions and Confucianism), but apparently your little sect doesn’t think so. At what point do you separate “man-made” and “natural”? Patriarchy, family, marriage.. You can argue that these are all “man-made” or you can acknowledge that these are apart of the natural order via Natural Law, which is established by God.
“You simply cannot defend yourself by saying that if you said something different you would have been right. Sorry, you failed. Just say you are wrong. You said “always”, deal with it.”
I don’t care. Yes, I said “always”. So what? I rescinded it. I am not wrong when you take out the “always” and replace it with “most of the time”. Oh look, I just defended myself and I’m still right. Your little semantics play doesn’t erase the truth of what I said. Looks like someone needs to have a better understanding of racial realities. Is it not true that the vast majority of minorities vote for the Democratic Party? You can go ahead and pray to God to give you the answer, while I’ll just use the eyes and logic that He granted me.
“Your problem is you are still listening to fallen man instead of God. Fallen man can easily get together and find a lot in common. I could care less.”
Who founded the Roman Catholic Church? A fallen man or the Son of God? You can’t get around this. Our Church was founded by Christ. Your churches, by “fallen men”.
Regardless, your argument is idiotic. Since we’re all fallen, I suppose there really isn’t anyone I should be listening to on anything. I should ignore the advice and observations of men older than I and wiser than I, right? I should just do what JWD. So when I come across a lake with a friend(a fallen man) and he advises me to walk around it or take a boat, should I ignore him and opt to walk on water instead?
“The Pope isn’t the last word on the issue, God is and the Pope aint’ God.”
Did you really think that I thought the Pope was God? Well, obviously the King hasn’t returned yet. Till that time, the Pope will have to suffice.
“Jesus the Christ claims that salvation is IN NO OTHER NAME but his. That is what the Bible says. That is NOT what your church says. ”
I think you’re prattling about the saints and Mary. Well, if you don’t get it the first time, you’ll never get it. God is tripartite: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That’s Whom I worship.
“It would be important for you to understand that I have survived YEARS of Catholic indoctrination and am well versed in various religions since childhood. That is what happens when you are raise by two former Catholics who practice witchcraft and Buddisim…before converting to Christianity lite.”
Hilarious, Christianity lite being Evangelicalism, right? I was not raised a Catholic, I chose to be.
“But unlike you, I am also well versed in the Bible. Get a King James Version (not the new) and read.”
You got me there. But, really I do not care. You’re not going to convince that some heretical sect founded by some “fallen man” is right over the Holy Mother Church founded by Christ.
“Hope this pisses you off enough that you look into it. It is how someone else got through to my ingorant butt too.”
It… was a cute little histrionic fit that amused me. Well, I’ll admit that I do feel like looking into it and I will, but I know that I’ll come away with the same score: you being wrong and I being right.
Svar said:
C.S. Lewis was smart enough to realize that there are elements of the Truth in all religions(I’ve noticed this to be true as well when reading up on the Indo-European religions and Confucianism),
This concept has interested me for quite a while. Of course, if the Biblical accounts of Genesis are to be taken as literal, historical, fact it goes a long way to explain why.
All who are alive today have descended from the same genetic pool. Those who survived the flood would have had knowledge of Who God is and of the Deliverer He promised to Adam and Eve after they sinned. Upon dispersion from the Babel building site, people would have carried with them whatever remnants of truth they still had, and the mythologies of non-Jewish civilizations would reflect such memories. It should not at all surprise any of us that there are facets of truth in these various beliefs. True wisdom finds its source in God alone, regardless of whether an individual recognizes Him as the source.
The sticking point in my mind is whether the various religions ultimately bring one to a knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. If not, the evidential truth becomes an agent of death rather than life as it leads adherents in the wrong direction.
I’ll admit that I do feel like looking into it and I will, but I know that I’ll come away with the same score: you being wrong and I being right.
The account of Joshua’s encounter with the “Angel of the Lord” is often brought to mind when discussions like this turn to who’s right. Are you familiar with it at all? The part which made an especially deep impression on me was that when Joshua asked whether He was on Israel’s side or with their enemies, He basically said “Neither” and described Himself as the Commander of the Lord’s army.
He’s so far above any of us that it boggles the mind. Yet, He fought for Israel when the nation chose to side with Him. Not sure how that fits the discussion, but it’s what your comment brought to mind
Svar,
Assuming makes an Ass out of you.
You have answered every question ASSUMING my position on them. While I pointed out weakenesses in your answers you simply took the position that I was automatically wrong, could not possibly have a different answer then what you think I have and therefore don’t know what I am talking about.
Foolish to say the least.
The context of the entire discussion is your assertion that the Catholic Religion is 1. Based on the Bible and 2. Based on the Jesus The Christ from the Bible. Keep this in mind and then go read your comments.
1. No pics, no offense but I do not need another stalker.
2. We disagree on which “christ” it was built upon. I suggest you do a little research on the origins of your Church. Start with the little story of Nimrod in Genesis, then progress to historical study on when the Roman’s took over that sect and declared themselves “Pope”…keep going, you can find it. Take a look at “Know your enemy” on you tube if you don’t feel like doing the foot work yourself.
Run a long now, I insist you come back armed to this fight
3. Your assumtions are again ruining any hope of you making a logical argument. Logic would have dictated that you at least tried to find out what it is I believe. All you do know is that I am not Catholic.
4. Again, you and I believe in different “christs”. You believe in Tammuz, which was changed to Christ much later. I don’t feel the need to educate you on how and why. Look it up. In fact you will see the “traditions” that you speak so lovingly off are there, thousands of years before the RCC.
I CAN trace the origins of my Christ through the Bible. You cannot. That is why the Catholic Church rarely uses it. Again, since you are not quite getting it, I go by what the Bible says and it says Salvation is in Christ.
5. Again, heresy to the Catholic Church. Not hersey according to the Bible. Please try to understand that, it will make your life much easier. Keep in mind the church you keep defending claims to use the same Bible I am pointing out to you it directly contridicts. You can attempt to convince me othersiwe, but I notice you are not able to by actually talking about what is in the Bible. Very common. Please feel free to quote the scripture you claim that evangelicals are disobeying. I am sure we would all love to know. Educate me. Give me Three ways that Evangelical Christians are being heretical according to the Bible. I will check back.
6. I could care less about your political stance. However, you have claimed the Biblical supremency of the Catholic Church. Since you CLAIM that your religious standing comes from the Bible please provide scriptures from the Bible for the following…
a) What are/is the means for attaining salvation?
b) From whom, or by whom, has salvation come into the world?
c) Why does man need salvation?
d) By what means, specifically listed, can man NOT attain salvation?
Book, chapter and verse so I can follow along please
7. Obviously pointless, lets move on.
8. Please see above regarding assumptions. I do not consider CS Lewis to be a writer of divine inspiration. In fact, I consider him someone to be read with great caution…especially the children’s literature. I think Heather handled this wonderfully and you would see what a waste your question was if you had simply read Genesis. It will be eye opening to you if you have the guts.
9. In other words, your wrong but won’t admit it.
10. Again, History lessons and reading the Bible will show you how incredibly stupid you sound here. Try it.
11. Can the Pope forgive your sins? Can he, along with other Catholic Priests provide the instructions for getting your sins forgiven? Do you not do things and pay money to have these things forgiven? Yes, your relgion does consider the Pope in the place of God. All of what I have listed are quite clearly in violation of what is set out in the Bible regarind both prayer to God and forgiveness of sins. Since you haven’t read it, I am not surprised that you simply don’t get that your continued contention that your RCC religion is based on the Bible makes you look even more and more foolish the more you post.
Believe whatever you want. Believe that there is a sky fairy. I just want to be the one person pointing out to you that what YOU believe is not what is in the Bible and you wouldn’t know it because you haven’t bothered to read it. Ignorance will not be an excuse come judgement day. Keep in mind the RCC is FAMOUS for making sure their adherents (and any one else for that matter) doesn’t read the Bible. Have you ever wondered why that is?
12. What you are not getting is that you subscribe, quite obviously in great ignorance, to a religion that does not do what you claim you do. That is not my problem. And regarding things of such importance as your eternal soul, I would highly suggest you do some research on what you are defending because you seem to be doing so on assumption instead of research.
AND, because you seem to have forgotten, you commented that SALAVTION was in the CATHOLIC Church. AGAIN, you cannot actually read the Bible and subscribe to its teachings AND beleive this at the same time unless you are uneducated on both topics.
13. Christianity lite, being the whole “I said the prayer to accept Jesus into my heart now I can go back to what I was doing.” Really Svar, before getting into a Christian theological discussions, it would be wise to understand Christian theology. I don’t know what your obsession with Evangelical Christians is, but is beginning to border on concerning.
14. Funny how you call it the “Holy Mother Church”. Did you not catch that? Did you not catch that you also admit to having no idea what the Bible says?
So, just to recap….you have no idea what the Bible says..yet you claim that the Roman Catholic Church (which pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years) is based on it.
That the RCC is based on the JEWISH Torah (which lays out all of the history of the world and mankind, the reason for a Savior and the prophecies that had to be fulfilled by Him) and was formed by Peter (a Jew and follower of the Jewish Messiah), one of the disciples mentioned in the New Testament (Eye witness accounts of the Messiah among the Jews and then letters from various apostles, including many from Paul who was chosen to bring the good news to the Gentile world, and has further prophecy which must be fullfilled). Which you admit you don’t have any knowledge of and did not read.
So you believe something based on ZERO actual personal knowledge, but think you have what it takes to debate it?
You also haven’t even asked me what I believe, but have decided to label me a Evangelical Christian and attempted, in a pathetic fashion, to counter what you considered attacks on your church by relying on assumptions and things someone else told you. Wow, truly you are a terrifying intellect.
15. Anyone as passionate as you are would be wise to understand in detail what they are willing to tell others is the only way to eternal life. To base your beliefs on anything else is doing yourself and others a great disservice. Until you have actually read the Bible, you have to admit you have no clue what you are talking about. And since you have made this admission, and are apparently uneducated on the origins and many manifestations of your Church, you have basically admitted that you have to cry “Uncle” to me.
I accept your admission of defeat.
And I pray you look into the Bible without assumptions. It can stand on its own. Read it, all of it. In context, from start to finish. Read it with the prayer that the Lord opens your eyes to the truth.
And listen to God not man.
Then you can thank God for sending one of His servant’s your way.
Ace
Heather, you are kind to point out where he could go to actually understand. That is what I am trying to do as well.
Reading the Bible will answer all of his contentions and questions. Some people simply won’t do it until they have to.
Ace
Okay, Ace, before I get into the rest of your interesting views(“Catholics worship a Sumerian god not Jesus!!”, lol. That point makes yourself look like an idiot), what exactly do you believe? What is the name of your faith-tradition?*
If you say Unitarian or Mormon just leave. You’re not a Christian.
“Then you can thank God for sending one of His servant’s your way.
”
Ace
Who would that be? A stupid little bint who thinks that Catholics believe in “Tammuz”? I do not know of any faith-tradition within Christendom that makes that claim. Enlighten me.
Ah Svar, it’s not worth engaging with such a provocative and haughty person.. Not worth refuting the nonsense. Like banging your head against a brick wall.. Best we can do is pray for her and hope one day that she becomes enlightened to the truth.
In the meantime just ignore the rantings. I certainly am. In fact her overly verbose posts I mostly just skimmed because they were just so tiresome..
And really, my time can be better spent elsewhere.
[Editor: I'm shutting down this thread mainly because it's devolving into personal attacks and I cannot moderate right now as I would normally. As I am one who is not at all convinced that Catholics are specifically damned or steeped in any more heresy than much of the American church, this is a subject I may broach after Easter if I can stomach it. We'll see. Y'all have a blessed Lent]