Is this new proposed solution just another bailout, or a legitimate way out? U.S. Representative Hansen Clark (D-Mich) has introduced a bill that would forgive student loan debts after 10 years.
On Tuesday, U.S. Rep. Hansen Clarke (D-Mich.) joined students from a classroom in Detroit to discuss his plan to ease student loan debt. Taking advantage of Google’s video conferencing service Google+ Hangout, Clarke explained the details of his Student Loan Forgiveness Act of 2012 to a physical audience at Wayne State University, as well as a virtual one comprising students from across Michigan and the country.
H.R. 4170 would forgive student loan debt for those who have paid 10 percent of their discretionary income toward their loans for 10 years and would cap interest on federal student loans at the current rate of 3.4 percent. Individuals who go into teaching, public service or practice medicine in underserved areas would have their debt forgiven after only five years.
Clark says student loan debt has turned the American dream into a nightmare for far too many college graduates:
“Everyone tells us to go to school and work hard and we’ll be rewarded for our dedication,” Clarke said Tuesday. “But the promise of a dream can turn into a nightmare for so many people.”
My initial response is that I don’t like it. As insidious and financially stifling as student loan debt is, there must be a better way than to stick the tab with the taxpayers, especially those of us who paid off our student loans.
There is also the matter of parents and college students approaching these issues much more responsibly than many do at present. With a child graduating high school in 6 weeks, this is something we have discussed extensively.
Your thoughts?
Wouldn’t it be easier just to allow student loans to be discharged as a part of bankruptcy? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
I’m opposed. No question, no “but if they tweaked it,” no hesitation. Unequivocably opposed. It’s all about personal responsibility. When I took on my student loans, I read the fine print. It clearly said that I had to pay back the loans EVEN IF I dropped out of school, EVEN IF I couldn’t find a job, EVEN IF anything. And I signed on the line, agreeing to pay them back EVEN IF. And then I did pay them back, EVEN THOUGH I quit the program early and worked retail for three years before getting a higher-paying job. Do I feel sorry for those who took on more than they can handle, in pursuit of degrees that foreseeably or unforeseeably would not result in a job with an adequate income to repay the loans without extreme sacrifice? Yes. But every time we remove the consequences from choices, we encourage people to make foolish choices. We’ve done that too much already. That’s why we have people over their heads with mortgages, over their heads with student loans, over their heads with car debt or credit card debt or any other kind of debt. We shouldn’t have bailed out anyone, whether corporate or individual. And if we put it into law that the loans will be forgiven as long as they pay a certain part of their discretionary income for 10 years, we WILL have fraud. After all, who’s to say what’s discretionary? If your rent or house payment amount counts as non-discretionary, or your car payment, or your grocery bill, then why wouldn’t someone rent/buy a nicer home, a nicer car, more “luxury foods,” and end up with a nice low “discretionary income,” and therefore a low repayment amount, while effectively having a high-discretionary-income lifestyle? People who have payments to make scrimp and save to make them. People whose payments are modified based on their “discretionary income” would just make sure they didn’t have too much “discretionary income.” No matter how carefully they defined it, they would be encouraging people to take out loans without ever intending to repay them in full. That’s sticking taxpayers with the bill, so it’s theft. It’s wrong, and it’s exactly opposite of where this country needs to be heading.
Unforuntately, not everyone who takes out student loans uses it for tuition, books, room and board. Often, those things are paid for in some other way while the student loan money pays for lifestyle expenses, i.e. clothes, eating out, weekend fun, spring break travel, etc. Since I don’t believe it is necessary to borrow money for higher education, and it isn’t insured that student loan money is used only for education (tuition, etc.), who’s to say the borrower won’t take out loans, use them, in my opinion, with poor judgement, then once out of school, keep their discretionary income purposely low to keep the payments low, just so they will be able to have the choices of when they sowed their wild oats paid for? Sure, it is tough for those who have student loans to pay them back, even if the student didn’t get the job they were hoping, but borrowing money is always a choice, and not a necessity.
Another thing Karly (are you indescribable Karly, btw?):
What is the determining factor used to outline what is “discretionary income” and what isn’t?Discretionary means income not used for basic necessities. However, one man’s necessity may be different from another’s. I mean, we can say food, shelter, utilities, etc.
But for some people “food” means eating out two or three times per week. Are we checking receipts? and what kind of new, bloated, government bureaucracy would be required to do that, LOL?
The whole “discretionary income” thing is another red flag.
This IS indescribable Karly, LOL. How are you, friend?
Lol, it is me!
I’m well! So glad to “see” you, Elspeth!
I agree with you regarding the discretionary income. There are too many ways to work this system, just at first glance.
You can get 50% of your student loans paid for by teaching in a Title I school. (Low SES). My daughter is doing that now. Our sons used a combination of scholarships, and loans to pay for tuition. Books and living expenses they worked for. Both graduated at very good univerisities, and not surprisingly are doing pretty well.
This is another gimme program, and it will only subsidize the very people who should not be in college. The marginal students, who will struggle until they quit, and then whine about the loans they took out.
As a student who is graduating in three weeks with loans to pay, I am STILL opposed.
Why are we so bent on prolonging childhood in this culture? How can we expect adults to act like adults if we remove the consequences of their choices?
I’m against it as well. It penalizes all those of us who paid off our loans.
This is a tough one for me, Terry. I agree with many of the commentors that it seems unfair to spend tax dollars to bail out student debt, but I also disagree with the tone taken by some regarding personal responsibility and the use of student loans by 18 year olds.
I confess I have a mountain of student loan debt that I accrued as a lost young woman trying to figure out my life with almost no guidance, be it spiritual or practical, and with zero income from any other source but the part time jobs I was able to work while attending school full time. I went to university because I honestly did not believe there was ANY other choice for a self-respecting human being, because that is what I was told from day one of my public school education, as well as by my parents. While I did go to a community college for the first two years to save money,I still had to get every dollar for tuition and other school expenses from student loans because there was absolutely no money to be had from my parents. I was also not able to work and save money as teenager (a long story Ill skip), so I was penniless facing University and, as I said above, believed the lie that I HAD to go to University or life would not be worth living and I would be a total failure.
I spent every dollar on tuition, board, and books and fees. I used credit cards (the debt of which haunted me for years) to pay for food, other expenses, etc. I didnt party, didnt buy new clothes, never had any money for anything, but spent every dollar I earned or received from loans to pay the beast which is university education.
I did not finish my degree because I was a lost young woman spiraling out of control in sin and depression, and I finally ran out of money and could not work more hours and still get my work done. I left school and the only good thing that came out of all of that was I was so depressed and felt like such a failure that God used it bend my knee and bring me to himself and I got saved the spring I dropped out of college (which was ten years ago).
I realize the debt is all my responsibility and Im honestly not sure when it will ever be paid off because we are single income and value me being home with my daughter over being able to fast-track paying the loans down. In a selfish way I would love it if this bill passed, but I see the point that it is unfair. But fair or unfair, sometimes I think we can be a little harsh and unrealistic about the ability of 18 year olds (heck, I was 17 when I started Uni!) to make proper decisions and have a true sense of what they are signing up for,especially those of us who had no guidance.
OFHW,
I appreciate your dilemma and agree that often 18-year-olds make these decisions ill-advisedly at best and with no advisement at all at worst. I don’t think anyone here intended to imply that we don’t feel compassion for people who acted in ignorance and had to pay the price. Haven’t we all had that experience at one time or another, LOL?
But let me offer a couple of parallel examples. A young man joins the military, and is shocked by the level of strictness that’s required, is ill-prepared for the physical rigor, and is homesick belong belief. What is he told? “This is what you signed up for whether you understood that or not. You have to fulfill your service.”
A young woman dons a beautiful white gown and marches down the aisle to her groom. One year later, the fairy tale she thought she was walking into proves to be far less enchanting than she’d hoped. He isn’t as attentive as he was before. He works all the time, doesn’t really listen to her. This isn’t what she signed up for. maybe she was too young to appreciate how challenging marriage would be. What would we tell her? “I’m sorry marriage isn’t all you hoped it would be, but it’s a lifetime commitment. Be patient and prayerfully keep doing what you know is right.”
This is what life is: choices, some we live to regret and others we are thankful we made. Once we start absolving one another of the ability to learn and grow by smoothing out every bump, we’re creating a society that none of us wants to live in. In fact, we’re almost there now as it is. This just adds more irresponsibility to the massive amount we have to deal with right now.
I know many people who are in your situation, and I know it’s tough. I hope I didn’t come across as flippant or indifferent to your plight. I’m sure you know that.
No! No! No! No! No!
People who take on student loans signed to be responsible, and therefore they should be…just like the “adults” they are supposed to be. This is NOT the responsibility of the taxpayer. These loans should be dealt with just like any other debt: Pay it back, or declare bankruptcy (something that wouldn’t help as the laws are currently written).
I agree with Elspeth’s first comment: These loans SHOULD be dischargeable in bankruptcy, like any other debt.
If that were to happen, then those who are holding the loans will be far more concerned about whether or not they should be extending this credit so easily. What is the person’s major (does it lend itself to paying off the amount of debt the student is accumulating)? How much total debt does the student have? How are the student’s grades? How long is the student taking to graduate?
Suddenly there are pressures both on the student and on the lender to be responsible for the extension of credit/accumulation of debt. The lender cares about the borrower’s ability to pay in the future and the borrower cares about whether he is on a track to responsibly deal with the debt he is accumulating.
That would result in far fewer student loans being available and thus, in the short run, far fewer students able to attend college in the standard fashion. Fewer students means the laws of supply and demand come into play and the colleges will have to lower their tuition back to something that looks reasonable.
In the beginning, allowing these to be discharged in bankruptcy would be very painful for the lenders who have given out these loans indiscriminately. In the end, allowing discharging would result in more reasonable tuition for everyone. Could we even hope to return to the days when a year of college at a state school could be paid for with a summer job (like when I was in school)?! Getting the government out of the market would, over time, normalize pricing again.
Oh of course, and I see all your points, which is why I said I understand that its my own responsibility and if I had to vote for this bill Im sure at the end of the day my conscience would probably steer me towards no (although if we’re going to get political here Id say if I had to pick between “bailing out” the individual who is buried under student loans or banks and corporations, Ill pick the individual any time). I guess I just get my back up a little when we talk about personal responsibility for thousands and thousands of dollars when it comes to misguided teenagers. But all your points are noted.
At the end of the day,I agree with RIck Santorum on this wider issue of college education and while I think he was wrong to call Obama a snob, I thin our society has become obsessed with the notion that one MUST go to university and has really failed to educate its youth on the other choices facing them. I have to say here in Ontario they do a much better job of that than in the states I grew up in- the trades are very popular and promoted here, and men and women can get very inexpensive two -year educations with lots of on the job training that sets them up to be able to support a family. I know those options are available in the US as well but Im telling you they were simply not promoted when I was in highschool. I dont remember a single friend saying they were going to get certified in a trade.
As for me and my house, we will not be encouraging our kids towards university unless they/we have the cash up front or unless there is a clear calling on their lives from the Lord to do something that a 4-6 year education requires (because lets be real…. a 4 year degree is not worth all that much anymore…most professions require post grad work to be or continue to be viable), and we believe that they have the wisdom and fortitude to get through all of that education and not waste their time, money, and energy. And now I’ve gone on long enough.
Oh, I did want to say that I like your idea about it being discharged with bankruptcy and the good points made about how that would keep loan providers from handing out loans so willy-nilly (although you could argue that this bill would probably do something similar to the same lenders, making them wary of providing loans). Good points there.
TOFH,
Let me up front apologize if my tone came across harsh. That is never my intent. All of your points are taken are noted, and I appreciate you sharing your story.
You mentioned personal responsibility of thousands and thousands of dollars when it comes to misguided teenagers. Therein lies a problem. Why are we expecting these teenagers to be responsible contributors to society at 18 (age of adulthood), allowing them to serve in the military (some at 17 with parental consent), allowing them to vote, allowing them to attend university (in my opinion, an adult undertaking, to be sure, even if it isn’t treated that way once some are there), but wanting to give them a pass when it comes to borrowing money? Are we preparing them for all of these other “adult” decisions, and yet not teaching them how to handle money, especially the pitfalls of borrowing money? I think that is the case. It’s been many years since I was in high school, but I did not learn about how to handle money there, nor very much from my parents, and I wasn’t ready for it when I went to school (I was also 17 when I went way to a state university.) Point being, young people are reaching adulthood lacking the wherewithal to manage money, a very adult and necessary skill.
OFHW said
I guess I just get my back up a little when we talk about personal responsibility for thousands and thousands of dollars when it comes to misguided teenagers.
I think I can relate to this. Hubby and I have managed to avoid or correct most forms of long-term debt which we accrued through youthful ignorance/foolishness. We do currently carry a moderate-size mortgage, though, and, although we are working toward paying it off, I do prickle a bit whenever I hear others who are not in our position “preach” about the evils of any form of debt. Once the hole is dug, there’s not much you can do except humbly and prayerfully face the inevitable consequences.
That said, I would never recommend to anyone to deliberately go into (ie apply for)debt for anything. I’ve never been comfy with the idea myself, and have had repeated confirmation that God’s people are to look first to Him for our care rather than to human systems. A couple of recent examples include Dave Ramsey’s statement that debt is not a tool, but a trap. And a visit from a Ugandan minister who graciously shared how the Lord is working among the (intensely needy by our standards) people he serves. Not only did he draw a very hard lins between true needs and “wants”, but he also insisted that he was not interested in soliciting us American believers for money to support his ministry. He simply said: “If it’s God’s will, it’s God’s bill.” Totally different attitude from the general response we often have of whipping out the checkbook or plastic card.
Back on topic: periodic forgiveness of debt is an interesting topic as it was an intregal part of OT Law. In this context, and pointing toward God’s forgiveness of our sin debt, it is a beautiful thing.. In our culture, I’m afraid it would only encourage people to take out loans they can neither afford nor intend to repay. Sometimes I wonder whether we have made “education” into an idol that our young people are encouraged to pursue at any cost.
draw a very hard lins
er. “line”
Interesting post.
Over the past three or four decades, a degree from a high-level university has become less about education and more about status. They’re able to charge more because the “consumers” are buying brand names for the names themselves, not the quality.
People need to own up to this. If this weren’t the case, then all those seeking higher education would opt for getting it on the cheap. There are a few ways to do that. 1). Take courses at community colleges and transfer the credits to a local state school after two years. 2). Evening classes like the University of Maryland University College. 3). Online University.
But social-climbing students are parents don’t want to tell the neighbors they’re going to an online school, just as they don’t want to drive an old junker into the neighborhood or live in the type of modest houses people lived in during the 1970s (one bathroom for three kids, etc). The middle class now wants diplomas from name schools, BMWs and McMansions.
We’ve already forgiven loans on the McMansions. Now they want to throw out the loans for the McSchools. How long until the middle class wants the taxpayers to foot the bill for their luxury cars?
Meanwhile, those of us who lived modestly and worked honestly will foot all these bills through tax dollars.
Karly,
I wasnt offended by anyone at all, just giving the alternative point. I totally agree with you, I think that your average 17 or 18 year old is not mature or equipped enough to make responsible decisions regarding money, and really more to the point, i think many young people are not responsible enough for what is required of them in University, namely the discipline and focus required, and so many kids end up dropping out or not getting all they should out of college because of spending their time partying, etc. I’ve seen it too many times to count now, kids going to Uni for two years, racking up debt, and then dropping out and not being able to get jobs that will pay for living expenses and their debt payments. Some kids are blessed enough to actually be raised in a home that teaches this kind of responsibility, and have the kind of moral strength and guidance to get them through four years of deadlines and temptations, but many do not. Im not sure that there is a solution for that except for a spiritual renewal in the hearts and minds of parents raising young people.
I think what makes things different today than a few decades ago, however, is the dramatic rise in cost of college education. Sure kids have always been kids, but as one commentor pointed out above (was it you?) you used to be able to earn your year’s worth of tuition in a summer time. No more! So kids are being pushed to sign up for huge debts that they hopefully will be able to repay should they make it through the gauntlet that is university life AND be able to find a job, but many do not come out that way, so taking the risk of student loan debt is a higher risk than ever.
The military comparison is an interesting one, becuase Im not so sure 18 year olds should be signing up to go off to war, either. There are many wonderful things that come from a military career and training… talk about being forced to grow up and learn responsibility! And when you are done with your stint in the military, you come out with more financial options for things like home loans and education, not less. But with our foriegn policy being what it is today, and the likelihood that our young people will face the horrors or war and quite possibly death when they sign up for active duty, Im not so sure the average 18 year old is really mature enough to make that decision, either (and this comes from a military brat).
Good discussion… better go mop my floors.
Heather,
” Sometimes I wonder whether we have made “education” into an idol that our young people are encouraged to pursue at any cost.”
I agree completely!! And as for debt, at this point mortgage is the only one we could see ourselves encouraging our children to incur. I know some Cristians would go so far as to say even that is wrong, but while i have nothing against people who chose to rent in perpetude, I think if you have the financial means to get a mortgage that you will be able to pay off in a decent amount of time, the pros of home-owning outweight the cons. But I respect people who differ, and agree as far as any other kind of debt.
I think if you have the financial means to get a mortgage that you will be able to pay off in a decent amount of time, the pros of home-owning outweight the cons.
Owning outright definitely can have its advantages!
Your statement is interesting to me as it is similar to the thought I’ve used to justify our taking out a home loan. That and “everyone does this, it’s an investment, and …it’s how we do it in America” Although, my perspective now is that it’s actually a gamble that I’d be able to fulfill my obligation before the final due date, as I have no knowledge of, and little control of the future. We’ve been paying for our place about 10 years, now, and after reassessing income vs spending/wasting I’m pretty sure that if we’d just been patient and more frugal, we could have built what we now have free and clear for the same amount we originally took out.
You make a good point regarding conscience, though. I’m not quite ready to declare it to be sin to ever take out a loan, but I do believe it is usually not a good idea as the weight of owing can often divide Christian’s hearts between serving God and mammon.
OFHW,
I agree that the rising cost of tuition is daunting for those who are trying to go to college. (No, it wasn’t me that mentioned earning a year’s worth of tuition in a summer, although I see how that isn’t possible anymore.) I also agree with Heather’s point about education being an idol, something to pursue at all costs– I believe we are there. But, I also believe just because we are there, we that don’t adhere to that line of thinking have to follow that path. There’s more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to get a good, affordable education without debt, several ideas having already been mentioned.
That said, and to your point, Heather, my husband and I also have recovered from our youthful ignorant/foolish money decisions, having dug ourselves out of the debt hole we created, so we have been in that position of reaping the consequences of our choices. We hold a mortgage as well. I am sorry if I came across as preachy, of course that wasn’t my intent, but I do speak from the hard lessons we learned. While debt forgiveness was an integral part OT law, and I wouldn’t be able to say that taking out a loan is sin, God warns us many, many times against borrowing money. He does so, as He gives us boundaries with many things, to protect us. Following His Word, in financial and all other situations, gives us freedom in Him, and going the other way keeps us in bondage.
Hi Karly,
You did not appear to be preaching. Actually, I put the term in quotations because many like you who have “been there, done that, learned the hard lessons” often speak from the heart and can offer wise words of caution which can go unheeded by those who are currently at a decision-making crossroads. Sometimes it can feel as though the message is pushy and/or judgmental to those who are not interested in listening to the voice of experience and carefully weighing against God’s Word what is being done.
Following His Word, in financial and all other situations, gives us freedom in Him, and going the other way keeps us in bondage.
Totally agree on this!!!!! So often, our unwise choices can result in nothing but bondage to frustration,and heartache.
@ Days of Broken Arrows:
I thoroughly appreciated your comment, and I’ll share what we are doing as we have a 17-year-old and two 16-year-olds right behind her.
Parents need to wake up and get a clue. Our daughter is preparing to finish her last two years of college, after graduating high school in a couple of months. That sounds like it doesn’t make much sense, but we did our homework and decided that in lieu of a bunch of AP classes (though she did take a few her sophomore year), it would be better to simply become a dual enrollment student and get the A.A. for free, letting the junior college courses fill in the state requirements for H.S. graduation.
As she begins her junior year of college in the fall, we found a solution that requires no borrowing. This, and she’s going to a local, private college that is very highly ranked, nationally. When she would tell people where she wanted to go to college, the first question was always, “That’s expensive, are you getting a scholarship?” However, we found a solution to that dilemma also, by asking questions and doing research. This self-same college has an evening program for students with more life experience that is a fraction of the cost of its traditional undergraduate program for kids just coming out of high school. She gets all the same benefits as a traditional student without the hefty price tag.
Since she’ll be living at home, this also means that she can hold down a part-time job. At this point it looks like we’ll be paying about $1000 per year out of pocket plus books. Not bad.
Oh, and I have to tell you what this kid requested as a graduation present, as it made her dad and me laugh: This.
She says its all she really wants but we have a far bigger gift in mind in addition to it.
Elspeth, I LOVE this solution! It’s so creative and along the lines we are thinking when we get there (our oldest is only 8, but it isn’t too early to think about.)
I love more that this was your daughter’s only gift request. It sounds like you have raised a very mature, godly woman.
Thanks Karly.
Given the outlandish cost of a college education, which has really become not much more than credentials masquerading as education, you have to be creative in order to get the benefits without breaking the bank.
It’s so easy to sign on the dotted line, borrow, and worry about the rest later. However, some colleges are making it difficult to fully utilize the benefits of your education if you default on your loans:
Colleges Assert that Your Degree Is Not Yours
All the more reason to think twice before taking out those loans.
There was once a dream in this country to make public universities free to it’s state citizens. Instead, many state’s made poor financial decisions and decided to make state universities cost tuition as a way to make up for it. How is that any different that each individual student who has the best intentions but then makes poor decision? Only they can’t make someone else pay the bill. Lets not even forget that college tuition has continued to rise at the same incremental level as it did before this great recession, while everything else around it has had to adjust. Don’t make these kids pay for the failure of society, they are just doing what they are told. The narrative that has been shoved down their throats for their entire life. “Go to school. Go to college. Get a good job.” Only, the job part is no longer part of the deal apparently.
Back on topic: periodic forgiveness of debt is an interesting topic as it was an intregal part of OT Law. In this context, and pointing toward God’s forgiveness of our sin debt, it is a beautiful thing.. In our culture, I’m afraid it would only encourage people to take out loans they can neither afford nor intend to repay.”
I’m very glad you brought this up, because I’ve seen arguments before from Marxist Christians (Not accusing you of making the argument, or of being Marxist.) harkening back to Jubilee. OT debt forgiveness was a cultural phenomenon, but done between the two parties of the agreement.* That situation does not exist in the American federal funding of education. The agreement is not made between the student and the bursar; or the student and the loan officer; or even the student and the bank–it’s literally made with everyone–including themselves as taxpayers. Forgiveness is impossible because there is no one on the other end to ask it from, and who is legitimately entitled to grant it.
“There was once a dream in this country to make public universities free to it’s state citizens.”
I’m quite sure there have been many dreams of free things that people want. They don’t exist. So, now that we have eradicated the basis for such childish thoughts, the rest of your comment has become entirely worthless, except as a thought exercise.
“[M]any state’s made poor financial decisions and decided to make state universities cost tuition as a way to make up for it. How is that any different that each individual student who has the best intentions but then makes poor decision?”
I’m curious about this system of yours; where every citizen cries, “That’s not fair!”, and government bureaucrats are assigned to pick winners and losers. Have you considered applying this to crime? Suppose someone is a victim of burglary. We could add his name to a list. Periodically, between team-building exercises and sensitivity training, FBI Crisis Case Manager #10326, officer Daisy Laki-Sikel could pull a name from that list, and then grant them a Writ of Theft, to be served on John Kornholde from Muncie, Indiana. Mr. Kornholde, upon receipt of such justice, would be referred to the FBI Crisis Case Management System…
*Marriage is similar–a publicly made and supported agreement between two parties with intensely private interests.
Not accusing you of making the argument, or of being Marxist.
Thanks
I’m pretty sure I couldn’t successfully merge Christianity and Marxism.
You know Heather, I thought of the whole Jubilee thaing as I was thinking this through and like you and Cane, immediately concluded that this is not a parallel example.
Steven, you failed to read my alternative scenarios above I take it. Either 18-year-olds are kids, unable to enter a legally binding agreement, or they are adults to be held accountable for the contracts they sign. They can marry, join the military, vote, and smoke. That they are just doing what they have been told isn’t enough to void the validity of their agreements they sign when they take out loans.
We have all been told that home ownership is an investment worthy of borrowing to make the dream a reality. We took out mortgages, having been told by thoe ostensibly more knowledgeable than us that this is what we should do.
And now, many people are paying mortgages on houses worth far less than what they owe. But, they were just doing what they’ve been told? Why should they have to continue to pay what they agreed to pay? Can you see how it begins to run over into absurdity?
A news channel in my area reported on President Obama’s visit to UNC yesterday. The student who introduced him seemed articulate, intelligent, and as if she will be very successful upon graduation next month. However, during her introductory speech, she touched on the fact that college loan interest rates are set to go up in July. She said, and I quote, “If college loan interest rates go up, then students who desire, and who truly deserve, to participate in extracurricular activities and be a part of university life, will be forced to work to pay for tuition and/or live at home with their parents.”
So she was basically saying that students “deserve” to not have to work, and they “deserve” to not have to live at home with their parents in order to reduce costs. This is what a college education has been reduced to. Even the brightest and the best, who will likely be considered very successful by worldly standards, believe that what is important is not necessarily the education, but the activities and the “university experience.”
It’s an absolutely appalling idea. “Forgiving” the loans sounds so gracious and kind, but it’s US, the taxpayers, who get stuck with the bill.
I’m against college loans completely. Rather than making college “affordable”, the easy availability of loans has contributed to the insane rise in the cost of education. I hate to see the scenario developing where one can ONLY go to college by accruing crushing debt. That’s supposed to launch you to a good start in your adult life?
I don’t think so.
When I went to university (back in the dark ages, I know…) I did school on what I jokingly called “the installment plan”, meaning I worked hard and went to school until my money ran out. When I had more money, I went back. And I graduated broke, but debt-free.
We’re homeschooling our three boys and planning to utilize what our state calls “Running Start”. Sounds like what your daughter (daughters?) have been doing – getting an AA as a dual-enrollment student. If they can’t finish the AA in two years, we’ll help them pay to finish it. After that, I don’t know yet what we’ll do, or where the Lord will be leading. But it won’t be into government loans.
Julie
PS I’m not anti-education, but I think it’s insane the way our culture – and public schools, especially – are driving ALL students to aspire to a university education. Frankly, not everyone is cut out for college.
I can think of several of my own family members who have an abundance of common-sense, a strong work ethic, but *ahem* less motivation in the academic arena. One has been very successful at coaching gymnastics (voted #1 in the state, three times, by other coaches) and now manages two gyms, another is a state Fish and Wildlife (game warden), my own dad – who would have been successful at university – quit school to marry and raise a family and became a journeyman electrician.
We’ve got an over-abundance of unemployed college graduates, but just try getting a plumber on a Saturday afternoon! (In fact, the last plumber that came to our house had some kind of advanced degree in chemistry.)
Just my two cents.
As someone who is trying to be responsible about paying off her loans, I’m a little torn about this bill. My parents fortunately paid for my college, but 3 years of law school cost me $145000. I definitely took out the minimum needed, and worked to supplement extra expenses. While I know it was my choice to go to law school, I think a lot needs to change in the way graduate programs discuss these loans. When I started, we were all under the impression that this 150k debt was an investment in our future and that it’d pay off because we’d end up with higher salaries. Too bad when we graduated, we were lucky to find a job at all. My job started me off at 60k, and when I was expected to make $1300 payments a month, I was shocked. Luckily I was able to sign up for an income based repayment program, but I’ll be paying these 3 years of education in almost 30years (and boy would I love it of they were forgiven after 10 or 15 years). Since my salary has gone up, I’m trying to pay more, about $1500 a month, and I agree that prevents me from buying a house or investing in a business, or other things that may help boost the economy. I think I agree with the posters that said the astronomic cost of tuition needs to be reduced so that grad students aren’t racking up 100k debt for only 2-3 years of school. Sorry for the lengthy post, but I guess what I’m saying is I don’t know what the right solution is: do we try to encourage professionals to try putting money into the economy, or make them end up paying 4 times the value of their loans over 30 years?
I say pass the bill!! As a student loan borrower and a teacher serving a low-income community, which means low teaching salary, I say forgive student loans after 10 years of paying into it. After reading many comments made I must say that not everyone gets it. As a high school student we are automatically tracked to go into college. I knew that I wanted to be a teacher since I graduated high school, I attended a public university ended up owing $20,000 in loans (I did pay some off), then I moved back to my parents home decided to do long-term substituting and work at 2 other retail jobs, I did work a lot and did not have any days off! I knew that the little money I earned was not putting a dent on my loans, so I decided that the only way to get out of this whole was to earn an M.A. since teacher salary was up at that point. I went to earn an M.A.T., not many M.A. programs offer much in grants, so I took out $40,000 more! I graduated went off to find a job ASAP and was hit with a medical issue. Before I knew of the I.B.R. student loan program I was paying $1,020 in student loans a month!! I could not do it, so I tried to bankrupt them, only credit cards and other things such as gambling are able to be bankrupted. I thought this was very unfair!! Why can credit cards, that one can use to buy thousands of clothes, gifts and vacations and gambling away your own money can be bankrupted but not student loans!! I must say that when I went on to college no one told me that I would owe a lot more than I took out! In high school they don’t teach you about interest and the loan officer sure hides that from you! Do you think I would take these loans out if he had said, well you are going to borrow 20,000- but you are going to pay about 7, 000 grand in interest?!! And to top it off schools do push a college degree saying that you will make a lot more than just earning a high school degree or going into a trade school!! I still hear it in my school as of now!!
Forgive all student loans after 5 years for low salaried workers without benefits and 10 for everyone else!
To Elspeth: You can get a divorce if you are not happy in your marriage and you can quit the military, but you can’t quit or divorce your student loans- you have to die for that to happen!!
Also, on top of paying my own student loans I work therefore it makes me a contributing taxpayer- so the part about having taxpayers take the blunt of student loans is rubbish!! People who have student loans now are mostly in the workforce contributing into taxes. I don’t understand we pay taxes for every other program, such as welfare, social security, war on terror, etc. but when it comes to paying for the future generation who will be contributing to our own social security we say, I don’t want my money going into that!!
Furthermore, let’s allow bankruptcy for all student loans!! If credit cards- where we can buy from clothes to diamonds can be bankrupt why not student loans? So basically we are saying that we can gamble all our money in one unlucky night by choice and not have $$ to pay our bills, that is ok, go ahead bankrupt it. However, when it comes to trying to bankrupt student loans where we can’t pay the set thousand dollar amount a month (and at that point no one wants to negotiate it down) we are told we can’t!! I see where the value is. I always said education in the U.S. is a gimmick too bad I did not have the knowledge I have now back when I was applying for school! Let me bankrupt my student loans and you can have my hard earned degree back!!
I say pass the bill!! As a student loan borrower and a teacher serving a low-income community, which means low teaching salary, I say forgive student loans after 10 years of paying into it. After reading many comments made I must say that not everyone gets it. As a high school student we are automatically tracked to go into college. I knew that I wanted to be a teacher since I graduated high school, I attended a public university ended up owing $20,000 in loans (I did pay some off), then I moved back to my parents home decided to do long-term substituting and work at 2 other retail jobs, I did work a lot and did not have any days off! I knew that the little money I earned was not putting a dent on my loans, so I decided that the only way to get out of this whole was to earn an M.A. since teacher salary was up at that point. I went to earn an M.A.T., not many M.A. programs offer much in grants, so I took out $40,000 more!”
~~Translated into Responsible English~~:
I chose a poorly-considered, but popular path to my bliss. It didn’t work out the way I dreamed, so I decided to do the same thing again, but bigger! Because you didn’t make as many–or as horrible–decisions as me, you don’t know what it’s like. No one should be responsible for themselves when it’s this inconvenient. Shirking responsibility should only be fraud when I want it to be.
Yes, Cane. I can’t help but note that this commenter wants to abandon principles. Even more shocking is the abandonment of basic fairness (fairness being the mantra of liberalism you know)!
After all surely she can see that it isn’t fair for people like my daughter who made the choice not to take out loans, or people like me who paid of my loans, to be stuck with the bills for her loans.
What’s next? Pay her mortgage when she gets behind on that? After all, we’ve all ben taught that home “ownership” is the American dream, the same way all 17-year-olds are taught that their lives will be useless without an expensive college degree.
What’s next?
You say that like it’s not here now.
Elspeth:
You are missing one huge gigantic exception to your argument about a person going into the military that is shocked when they get there and doesn’t want to do it anymore, and the key thing you are missing is that they only signed up for four years! So they have the option to re-enlist after four years or get out! So, if we are using the military as an example, can I take student loans out and then opt out of them after four years when I realize that this isn’t for me!!
Your second “parallel” example made even less sense because you can (a) annul a marriage in some states for whatever reason and (b) you simply just get a divorce. That’s why the divorce rate in this country is over 52%.
All of your examples have an out, so shouldn’t we pass the bill so that student’s have an out also? Based on your examples I would say lets retire the debt after students have paid 4 years of interests and thank them for their service just like we do with military personnel.
Canecaldo:
In response to your pointless response to me I am going to put this in “responsible English”. You did not understand my post because I handled my responsibility by working 3 jobs and going to school. So how can working three jobs to pay the debt down not be “being responsible for myself”? I have taken care of myself all my life, period. I am currently paying my student loan obligation I just do not want future students to be as burdened as I have been by this. This is not shirking responsibility.
Unfortunately it sounds to me like you either (a) didn’t go to college or (b) had someone else pay it for you. I have never had the privilege of having someone else pay my bills.
This popular path you write about, is the ONLY path, to my profession. You respond as if I had an alternative, but I guess in your mind not chasing your dreams or “bliss” is an alternative!
However, you are right in one thing, the “bliss” that I thought I would receive from teaching was a stable career and decent health insurance while serving the public. Unfortunately all I have found is that my profession is being attacked and harassed by people that do not understand the responsibilities and burden of carrying America’s youth into the future.
Elspeth:
Your comment about how your daughter has chosen not to take out student loans, reminds me of my co-worker who is 30 years old and had his mommy and daddy pay (i.e., lights so he can study, air conditioning so he was comfortable in the summer, heat in the winter, insurance so he can drive the car to school oh I forgot room and board free, etc.).
Honestly he had part-time job to pay for his partying. If I were given that opportunity I would of also chosen not to take out student loans. You write from a place of privilege that not everyone enjoys. You should be thankful and extremely grateful that your daughter had the choice to not take on student debt. Unfortunately for the remaining 90% of students, who make up the 1Trillion Dollars in student debt, they were not afforded those same opportunities.
Is it unfair for someone who is not coming from a place of privilege and has worked to build himself or herself up on his or her own, a little reprieve? Because we all know that when someone with money messes up we give him or her the reprieve.
How is asking another American to pay interest on a student loan that they would of rather not taken out but knew this was their only chance, fair, when the rich pay no taxes at all and get to send their kids to YALE and Harvard for free (thank you Legacy)?
P.S.
By the way that 30-year-old co-worker plans on spending the rest of his life with mom and dad.
Joany,
I can see that you’re passionate, but you’ve said your peace and very few people here will ever agree that it is a good deal for tax payers to have to pay for other people’s loans. It doesn’t matter how you slice it, it’s wrong. It just is. It’s no different than having the government force taxpayers to pay any other kind of bill for you.
I’m tired of the lack of principled critical thinking among the so-called educated. And you’re an educator to boot?
Sheesh.
Joany,
You worked three jobs to put yourself through college, and still racked up about $60,000 in debt. There are three potential explanations that I can imagine for this.
1) You are called to be a teacher. Not like your pastor was called, but like Abraham and Moses were called; burning bushes and pillars of flame were involved. If this is you, then far be it from me to suggest we interfere. God will use this current pain for some greater glory.
2) You’re an economic masochist. Having investigated many options of employment, you chose the one with the worst rate of return you could find. This feeds your self-loathing. If this is you, then bailing you out would be useless. Those who like their pleasure spiked with pain move from one misfortune to the next. Better to leave you in this satisfying misery, than push you into one that might be less sating.
3) You’re very foolish. You didn’t investigate your options at all. At every turn, you doubled-down on your bad choices by making more of them, with ever greater consequences. Now, you want to be rescued by The Man.
Being a woman, you’ve been inundated with glorious stories teachers who have achieved self-actualization; they steer young minds; they have financial security. In other words: you wanted all the blessings of being a wife and a mother without having to hitch your wagon to some man’s train. Instead, you entered contracts with the states, and bankers.
You’re married to The Man, now. He’s come to get his due.
Joany, if my daughter was “privileged” she wouldn’t have had to do dual enrollment to get a free jump start on her college career or make any of all the other myriad adjustments we’ve had to make so that college is affordable.
Please stop making excuses to justify other people being forced to bear the burden of your personal decisions that didn’t pay off as you’d hoped they would.
Will the black stay-at-home-mom with community college-bound children please take her foot of our necks? We’re being oppressed, here.
Elspeth,
The government is forcing me to pay other people’s bills, its called “SOCIAL SECURITY”. There are more people in this country drawing a Social Security check then there are people paying in to it.
Also, the rich in this country are taking tax deductions that raise my taxes because the government is allowing them to buy a house or multiple homes and then they are allowed to deduct the interest that they pay from their taxes. So in effect I have to pay for elderly people so they can have lights, cellphones, cable T.V. and I have to pay for people to own their own house.
So why can’t my tax money be used for me instead of them?
Between social security, welfare and the home mortgage interest deduction program. I am already paying other people’s bills!
Do you realize that the government is subsidizing cellphones for the poor? Also, at the school I taught at when they had the Christmas drive for the poor community, I brought food, clothing and educational materials and was later told that it was not what they were looking for. They then gave me a list of the things they would accept, on the list were IPODS, IPhones, computers, PlayStations, etc. Since when does the poor community not need food anymore? I guess my tax dollars going into welfare are giving them a pretty good life if all they need are overpriced electronic devices, things that I wouldn’t even buy for myself.
You can’t honestly believe that my tax money isn’t going to pay other people’s bills. If you get rid of the tax deduction for mortgages and any type of social security and welfare then I would have paid for my education a long time ago.
Ahh, Joany. now you’re getting into something worth talking about.
I agree with you on something. Yes, the lifestyle of the American middle class (including my own) is largely subsidized through tax breaks. No question about it. And yes, the entitlement programs directed towards seniors have also become an economic albatross around the necks of young workers.
However, and here’s where our communication breaks down again, this is crippling the US economy. The answer to the problem is not to double down on these policies and create more dependency. I’m no economics expert, but it seems to me that the answer is to revisit ALL entitlements, including my mortgage interest deduction LOL, and see how we return more economic responsibility (as well as liberty) to the people.
Yes, it would mean more renters, smaller homes, older cars, less eating out, fewer trips to the mall, and less Starbucks for every one (not to mention taking more direct care of mom and dad in their old age), but from where I sit, that is preferable to what you propose, which is an expansion of people on some of the dole. Not a good plan Joany, no matter how you look at it.
The government is forcing me to pay other people’s bills, its called “SOCIAL SECURITY”. There are more people in this country drawing a Social Security check then there are people paying in to it.
This is a bit of a knot to untangle. Once upon a time, it was considered a blessing to have children, and a large cross-section of American parents recognized our duty before the Lord to raise up godly offspring.
As the US has prospered materially, many who now partake of SS opted to have fewer (or no) kids…or to have them later in life (thanks, Planned Parenthood). And, don’t forget that many young people learn early how to work the welfare system. That easily explains why there are fewer workers feeding the beast.
Additionally, we’ve been told for decades that it is preferable to send our children away from home to be educated and, as a result, there is less family bonding. Too many American families are simply a handful of people who sleep under the same roof but actually live in completely different spheres. Even those who are making a conscious effort in this area are well aware of how difficult it can be to really get to know each child and maintain the relationship. The idea of caring for practical strangers in their old age probably doesn’t appeal to most young adults who are working hard to realize their own “American Dream”.
Should it surprise any of us that an older couple who has chosen to allow “the state” to do most of the rearing of their 2.4 children should end up in a nursing care facility, supported largely by SS $$ ?
You can’t honestly believe that my tax money isn’t going to pay other people’s bills.
Of course it is! As “homeowners”, we get taxed in order to cover public school expenses…yet we educate our own children at home. On a regular basis, the people in our area are presented with supplementary levy which ups the costs, and eventually, it gets passed. We get to pay for services we don’t use and don’t even believe are the “best” option for our children. That’s only dipping one toe into the way tax payers are expected to pay for other people’s bills.
That’s the way it is. Working diligently to make changes where we can is admirable. Complaining about the unfairness of it all will only poison our own hearts with bitterness.
Heather,
Wow, where do I begin? First and foremost in this country there is a separation of church and state!
Once upon a time in this country a family was able to survive under one income, and then women went into the workplace, thank you World War II. Now, I am not saying that women shouldn’t work, what I am saying is that we have lost that option of a woman staying at home to raise a family. This is where we agree.
“As the US has prospered materially, many who now partake of SS opted to have fewer (or no) kids…or to have them later in life (thanks, Planned Parenthood).”
I don’t understand your line of logic, because the elderly are the ones collecting social security not people who waited later in life to have kids.
Having kids later in life is actually a decidedly good choice, I applaud women who are making these intelligent decisions, because the movement that happened in the 50’s-70’s was that if a girl got pregnant she had to get married in order to save face within the community or give up her child. That is why the largest demographic in this country getting divorced are people in their 60’s to 80’s. This is the saddest circumstance in this country. Gay people aren’t ruining marriage (because they can’t get married) the elderly are. The reason I say this is because the elderly, especially women are realizing that they don’t have to deal with the BS from their man, maybe in the 50’s they had to tolerate it, but not anymore. Also, in un-discussed aspect of these forced marriages is the domestic, verbal and physical abuse these women had to deal with from the “MAN” or the “Beast”!
,
“As “homeowners”, we get taxed in order to cover public school expenses…yet we educate our own children at home. On a regular basis, the people in our area are presented with supplementary levy which ups the costs, and eventually, it gets passed.
I don’t have any children and I don’t own a house because I know I am not financially ready for it, (thanks to the high interest on student loans). However. I am still required to pay for those who have all of these whether they are ready or not for them.
We get to pay for services we don’t use and don’t even believe are the “best” option for our children.
As a teacher I have to disagree with the fact that you are homeschooling your children and is not about the educational aspect because I hope you and your husband are highly educated. My concern is in the adjustment that these kids will require when they have to deal with people in their classroom, job or society other than mom and dad. The biggest problem that I see as a teacher is students who cannot deal with and are not ready for other people’s attitudes, life choices, cultural differences, choice of dress, other religions and others way of thinking.
I really hope that you have instilled in your children tolerance because they are going to need it if they are to function in a societal system other than your home.
You cannot give your children fair or constructive criticism, its impossible to receive the unbiased education that comes from a public, private, charter or any type of learning that is done by someone other than a family member and involves other children from different backgrounds. I am concerned for children who are not placed in a diverse learning area. This can lead to prejudice. I don’t see how sheltering a child leads to a person that is fully able to function in a fully diverse society. Have you ever heard the joke, “what did you live under a rock”. Homeschooling your kids is the equivalent of keeping them under the rock, they are not prepared to go into a “melting pot” society at all.
Complaining about the unfairness of it all will only poison our own hearts with bitterness.
Avoiding the conversation only makes the heart bitterer. For all you talk about from God to family values isn’t one thing we’ve learned that not talking about a problem is just as bad as ignoring it? Ignoring a problem and not getting out in the open has led to many divorces. You as a “God-fearing” person should be one to embrace and want the discussion because if Jesus kept everything to himself would you have a religion today?
Alright Joany, this is not a homeschooling thread. But here’s the thing, in our family we are also homeschooling our younger children and a significant portion of the women and men who read this blog are homeschoolers.
Do me a favor and skip that debate. It falls on deaf ears here. We have some arguments of our own we could present, but we won’t, at least not today. Frankly, we are not at all surprised that a public school teacher objects to homeschooling. Seriously, you think we haven’t heard all this stuff before and then some?
What’s more is that most of what you said was clearly based in ignorance of what homeschooling is and what it is all about. Stay on topic, please.
Whew! Thanks for the quick reply, Elspheth. “What’s more is that most of what you said was clearly based in ignorance of what homeschooling is and what it is all about.” I was about to load for bear on that last one and your reply talked me down.
As for the topic, I will repeat what I wrote way up at the top of the thread. The debate shouldn’t be about taxes or about bailing out those who took out student loans.
It should be about the unique nature of the loan in that it is the only loan I know of that can’t be discharged in bankruptcy…and that’s just not right.
It removes the incentive of the banks to ensure they are making a smart loan that stands a chance of repayment. If the loans could be discharged in bankruptcy then they wouldn’t be so easy to get and the students would have to actually have earning potential and good grades to get them. The result would be fewer students able to attend college. The result of that would be colleges would have to actually bring their tuition back down from the stratosphere to a level that is affordable. Tuition’s only where it is because of the interference of the government in the free market via the student loan programs.
Would it take some time to stabilize? Yes. Would there be screaming and gnashing of teeth by those who deem college a “right”? Of course. Would the colleges moan and groan because they might have to cut out “Middle-Aged Martian Societal Sexuality Studies” and all the associated “Professors” and “TA’s”? Absolutely! And that wouldn’t be a bad thing, either.
But it would work…
Thanks Elspeth, for intervening. Definitely did not intend to jump into that debate.
Hi Joany,
First and foremost in this country there is a separation of church and state!
Jefferson’s “wall of separation” letter was meant to be his assurance that concerned Christians of his day need not fear federal interference of individual religious freedom. The leaders of the federal govt were not going to try to force all citizens to become Presbyterian or Lutheran or Catholic etc. Totally understandable concern, as many of these people would have wondered whether the youthful US would eventually pattern the religion-state relationship after the then-prevalent “Old World” model.
Separation of church and state has been erroneously reinterpreted to mean that God and “secular” government have nothing to do with each other. Scripture indicates otherwise. Even our own printed currency contradicts this view.
My comment regarding education was not meant to be antagonistic toward you as a teacher. I don’t begrudge any child a sound education and I believe there are dedicated teachers of all stripes who genuinely care about the children they instruct. I should have been more prudent with my choice of example. And, I should have quoted Elspeth’s response to your statement as I was primarily keying off of:
it would mean more renters, smaller homes, older cars, less eating out, fewer trips to the mall, and less Starbucks for every one (not to mention taking more direct care of mom and dad in their old age),
I was acknowledging that much of our current problem is multigenerational in nature. A progressive increase in materialism and generalized decrease in intensive parental instruction doesn’t offer much hope for creating the type of families which recognize that not only are children are of eternal value, but that they ought to be pleased to give back to parents as they age. The problem has been compounded by the ability of less-interested parents to assume that their children are being adequately trained by professionals; and so relinquish their own duty of actively teaching and interacting with the kids.
You seem bothered to have to foot the bill for those who collect SS while not being allowed to accept other people’s money to pay your own bills. My point was that most of us have financial obligations (often obtained out of ignorance of the full burden which accompanies) and also pay taxes on things that we don’t necessarily feel benefits us, personally.
You as a “God-fearing” person should be one to embrace and want the discussion because if Jesus kept everything to himself would you have a religion today?
I do appreciate thoughtful, respectful discussion. My objection was to the tendency (my own) to become dissatisfied and bitter by focusing on how *I* might be getting a rotten deal.
It’s true, Jesus said what needed to be said. And His words can be as hard to accept today as they were when He originally spoke them.
He could have legitimately declared the reception He got to be “unfair”.
But He didn’t. And I am grateful.
I do agree about being held responsible for your choices, but isn’t going to school suppose to help you improve your financial standing and not worsen it. I took on the loans with the full intent to pay them back and at this point I believe that I might have been better off not going to college at all. I am not asking for my debt to be erased but to be more manageable which would include my private loans as well. Part of the problem is the catch 22 a lot of the new grads encounter these is no one wants to hire them because they have no experience. How can one get experience if no one hires them? So I am for some student loan reform, and the ability to consolidated private with federal without losing the perks of federal loans is a good thing. I feel students should be able to make there loan payments without having to decide whether to eat or pay the loan.
To Peter,
I agree with you 100%. Student loans needs to be manageable and tuition rates needs to be affordable. It’s crazy that tuition rises every year without regards to the current economy. Both federal and private loans should have a very low interest rate. The high interest on student loans is what is making many borrowers default on their loans!
It’s crazy that tuition rises every year without regards to the current economy.
It is crazy, and it brings up a point about why I dig Dave Ramsey: He tells people who make the crazy choice they did something stupid. If they don’t want to hear it he stops trying to help them.
The subsidization of student loans by the federal government is at the heart of this you know.
Where the heavy foot of government steps, you can count on increased costs: Education, healthcare, housing, etc.